Curb Your Enthusiasm

[Josh]

So are you going to name them?

Well, since you asked...

Butler Winery in Indiana (no relation to the University) makes excellent blackberry and black currant wines. They have a tasting room in Chesterton and the winery itself is located in Bloomington.

Tabor Hill and St. Julien in SW Michigan both make very good cherry wines.

Sandhill Crane, in your neck of the woods, makes very good dessert-style blueberry, strawberry and especially raspberry wines.

My favorite winery overall for fruit wines is Peterson & Sons, near Kalamazoo. It's just one old dude and his wine, and he does it w/o sulphites. Allow at least an hour and a half to visit the tasting room. He takes his tasting seriously and he loves to talk wine and/or politics. One of his sons owns the Contessa Winery in Coloma. The Cranberry wine is really great, but every fruit wine he makes is good. He makes some mean Lambrusca wines too. The Niagra and Delaware wines stick out in my memory.

Apple Cider and Perrys could be considered fruit wines too. We visited this great cidery in NY called Bellwether last summer. Excellent cider all the way around.

That's all I can think of for now.:cool: Not sure if any of them are actually better than something from Cote d'Or.

[OscarV]

I don't mind the criticisms, especially when they are valid. But... sometimes discussions like these remind me of bourbon drinkers criticizing scotch. Just because it is not your cup of tea, doesn't mean its wrong.

Going back to the comparison to micro breweries... not everyone likes an IPA (and I would argue most "regular" beer drinkers don't like them at all), but that doesn't make the product inferior.

Back in the day,.... yeah I used that old tired cliche, there were a lot, and still are today, a lot of phony "micro brews" that were offered at "brew pubs" made with quick fix kits to sell mediocre food by shysters.

If you spoke out about these starchy beers you were thought as "not being with it" whatever "with it" was.

This "micro distilling" is looking like the same old movie.

In a decade when all the experimenting is over maybe someone will come up with something good.

BTW, IPA beer is not new to the "micro brewers" of the present scene.

It was invented in England in the 1700's to ship to the troops in India, they loaded it up with hops to last long because of travel, who were oppressing the masses there.

Back to whiskey, to me it's gotta be aged, if it ain't then it's a variation on vodka, not that there is anything wrong with that but vodka is vodka and whiskey is whiskey and they shouldn't be calling it by another name.

[barturtle]

Back to whiskey, to me it's gotta be aged, if it ain't then it's a variation on vodka, not that there is anything wrong with that but vodka is vodka and whiskey is whiskey and they shouldn't be calling it by another name.

I'm gonna disagree with you, whiskey is distilled to a much lower proof than is the GNS that make up vodka, leaving a distinct flavor of grains representative of it's mashbill. I happen to like unaged and lightly aged whiskey, some quite a lot.

[nblair]

People who get into Woodford's Master Distiller's collection and BT Experimental collection are the people most likely to appreciate the work of micros.

That is a great point Ben, I think that pretty much sums it up for me.

I really want to try Old Potrero, not because I hear it's the greatest thing ever (which I have never heard), but because it is a unique whiskey you can't get from the major distillers. If I was to buy a micro-distilled product it would be to try something new and different, not find a new daily pour.

[kickert]

BTW, IPA beer is not new to the "micro brewers" of the present scene.

It was invented in England in the 1700's to ship to the troops in India, they loaded it up with hops to last long because of travel, who were oppressing the masses there.

Of course micro breweries didn't create the IPA, but if you want one here in the US you are probably going to get it from a micro brewery and not one of the main stream guys.

[nblair]

Back to whiskey, to me it's gotta be aged, if it ain't then it's a variation on vodka, not that there is anything wrong with that but vodka is vodka and whiskey is whiskey and they shouldn't be calling it by another name.

I'm gonna disagree with you, whiskey is distilled to a much lower proof than is the GNS that make up vodka, leaving a distinct flavor of grains representative of it's mashbill. I happen to like unaged and lightly aged whiskey, some quite a lot.

I agree with Timothy here. Oscar have you tried the Party Source Willett 3 Year? It's surprisingly good for a 3 year old bourbon. It just might change your mind.

[OscarV]

if you want one here in the US you are probably going to get it from a micro brewery and not one of the main stream guys.

Yep, that's true,

I agree 100%,

heck I've made a good living selling main stream beer for the last 32 years but I don't drink it,

but if you want a good whiskey you are going to get it from the main stream guys not a micro distillery.

[SMOWK]

Of course micro breweries didn't create the IPA, but if you want one here in the US you are probably going to get it from a micro brewery and not one of the main stream guys.

I'm somewhat biased due to the fact that the brewery is 30 mins from my house, but Dogfish Head is by far my favorite IPA producing Micro Brew. I think they may be outgrowing the Micro Brew label though, as I've seen their beer in plentiful quantities as far away as Oregon.

Their spirits, from what I've tasted, are horrible.

[CorvallisCracker]

I'm somewhat biased due to the fact that the brewery is 30 mins from my house, but Dogfish Head is by far my favorite IPA producing Micro Brew. I think they may be outgrowing the Micro Brew label though, as I've seen their beer in plentiful quantities as far away as Oregon.

[SMOWK]

Yep you can get it here. I like it (the 60 minute) but I don't buy it often, because it goes for $2.50 - 2.70 per 12oz bottle.

[jburlowski]

....

Back to whiskey, to me it's gotta be aged, if it ain't then it's a variation on vodka, not that there is anything wrong with that but vodka is vodka and whiskey is whiskey and they shouldn't be calling it by another name.

[SMOWK]

And then there is that ugly, unfortunate Rain business.....

:hot: :blush: :smiley_acbt: :22:

[jburlowski]

I agree with Timothy here. Oscar have you tried the Party Source Willett 3 Year? It's surprisingly good for a 3 year old bourbon. It just might change your mind.

[cowdery]

Another way to look at this is historical. "Common" (i.e., unaged) whiskey was dominant until pretty late in the 19th century and even then, most of the supposedly aged whiskey was a doctored product that contained non-whiskey ingredients. Fully-aged whiskey only became the standard at the very end of the 19th century after government regulation pushed the fakes out of the market.

Lightly aged (less than four years) whiskey was also quite common and popular.

Some of that common or young whiskey was better than others and consumers favored the products that, through the distiller's skill, had achieved the best taste. I don't consider it 'lowering the bar' to judge a two-year-old bourbon against other two-year-old bourbons. I consider it a legitimate style and I'm interested in finding the practitioners who deliver the best product of that type, just like I'm interested in finding the best 10-year-old or the best 20-year-old, which also are not all created equal.

[CorvallisCracker]

Wow, I'm getting it for next to nothing then. Cases of the 60 minute go for under $20 here. I usually prefer the 90 minute though, but it's more like $40-50/case. It is 18 proof though, so that sorta makes up for the extra cost.

The price I quoted is from a couple of different specialty beer stores here in Corvallis. There is a high-end grocery in Eugene ("Market of Choice") which also sells it, and it may be less there. I'll check the next time I'm down that way.

Have you ever tried a 120 minute? I always have a few on hand, but even around here they go for $5-10/bottle. It weighs in around 40+ proof, so I wouldn't really consider it a beer, more like hop syrup. I usually split a bottle in a snifter with a friend around the poker table.

No, just the 60 and 90. The 120 sounds scaaary.

The vodka, I literally could not give away.

Not even as a fuel additive?

I guess I'm way off topic for this thread (BASEMENT!!!).

On the subject of microdistillery whiskey, I've expressed my opinion on that elsewhere (House Spirits thread in Other American Whiskey forum). A quality whiskey needs to be aged at least four years, preferably longer.

[wadewood]

Wake me when these craftsmen bottle something that has been aged in oak for at least 6 years.

The Garrison Brothers Bourbon pre release bottle was over 6 months, blend of several barrels and probably averaged 15-16 months. In Nov, they will release a 2 year old straight bourbon.

[OscarV]

Don't get me wrong, there are some young whiskies that I like.

Mellow Corn BIB is good, Thomas H Handy Rye is a very good youngster as is George Dickel Old No 8.

[callmeox]

I happen to like unaged and lightly aged whiskey, some quite a lot.

Which of the unaged and lightly aged whiskeys have you purchased and liked and would you purchase them again?

I agree with Timothy here. Oscar have you tried the Party Source Willett 3 Year? It's surprisingly good for a 3 year old bourbon. It just might change your mind.

The Willet 3yo is an outstanding "transitional" example, an adolescent bourbon that retains the grainy flavors of youth but is starting to show the characteristics of barrel aging. At less than $30.00 for a 750ml of unfiltered barrel proof bourbon, it is a great value as well.

Where else can you get that combination of youth and proof or youth, proof and price?

If you are looking for a micro to produce something that tastes like it came from one of the big guys, why even bother... you will always be able to get it cheaper from them.

I don't mind the criticisms, especially when they are valid. But... sometimes discussions like these remind me of bourbon drinkers criticizing scotch. Just because it is not your cup of tea, doesn't mean its wrong.

While your point about the micro -vs- macro style and price is valid, I find it telling that the belle of the ball at the ADI was not a craft distilled product but one made from a standard bourbon mash combined with straight rye blending stock both from a macro distillery. With all of the styles represented, that was best of show. What exactly made that the choice as the best example of an American craft distilled whiskey?

The microbrew "revolution" has flourished and pushed the big boys into copying their styles because they have satisfied a (once) hidden demand for something of a different style or higher quality. American Pilsners just didn't cut it when compared to the new (actually old) styles of beer that the micros are kicking out.

Does the same demand for American whiskey exist? Is there pent up demand for specialty whiskeys, often young and made from non-standard mashbills?

We will find out.

[barturtle]

Which of the unaged and lightly aged whiskeys have you purchased and liked and would you purchase them again?

I've liked and purchased the following:

Old Potrero 17th and 18th, though I believe the proof is no longer barrel proof on both these, so I wouldn't likely purchase again.

Mellow Corn (I think 4yo is the cut off for young whiskey)

Georgia Moon 100.

There are several others I've liked, but not purchased, as they aren't on the local shelf or I haven't had the money to spend

Willett 3yo

BT White Dog

Young barrel samples of various undisclosed ryes and bourbons.

[cowdery]

It is very telling that the big winners at ADI were macro-distilled and aged products, although it's also interesting to note that Templeton Rye was entered and won nothing.

The way "Best of Show" was judged was that at the very end of the day they brought us each something like twelve samples. We knew they were all category winners but we didn't know what categories except by what we could intuit. They were just twelve unmarked glasses. We were asked to pick one "best" from among them which, inevitably, was whatever we liked the best.

I came away from that day feeling that all I did all day was drink white dog and it was pretty taxing. I wonder, though, if it had been a plate full of aged spirits with one excellently made white dog if it wouldn't have been the white dog that cut through.

[Enabler]

The microbrew "revolution" has flourished and pushed the big boys into copying their styles because they have satisfied a (once) hidden demand for something of a different style or higher quality. American Pilsners just didn't cut it when compared to the new (actually old) styles of beer that the micros are kicking out.

Does the same demand for American whiskey exist? Is there pent up demand for specialty whiskeys, often young and made from non-standard mashbills?

We will find out.

[flsean]

I also think that one major difference between the two that will affect the success of micro distillers is price. Micro brewers succeeded in part because their price point isn't usually exceedingly high, and the difference in price between them and the mass produced stuff doesn't seem that large. It came down to, "well, this nice micro brew sounds good, and the six pack is only a couple bucks more than the swill I normally drink, so I'll try it." If people didn't like it, they were only out a few bucks.

With the micro distillers, the price point is still too high to have as drastic and as quick of an impact. If people don't like the micro stuff, they are usually out a significantly larger amount of money. That and the average consumers, based on the people I deal with at work on a daily basis, really have no idea of the differences between good and bad American whiskey. There is a bit of a conception in Scotch drinkers, but 99% of the customers I deal with have no idea about anything other than brand names when it comes to bourbon and American/Canadian whiskies. Hell, I had a customer today tell me that Jack Daniels was the best bourbon in the world.

[sku]

And many will be overpriced for not great stuff and fade away. Pioneer Spirits here in Chico just died the death this year.

When did Pioneer die out? They were supposed to be making a whiskey.

[sku]

It is very telling that the big winners at ADI were macro-distilled and aged products, although it's also interesting to note that Templeton Rye was entered and won nothing.

The way "Best of Show" was judged was that at the very end of the day they brought us each something like twelve samples. We knew they were all category winners but we didn't know what categories except by what we could intuit. They were just twelve unmarked glasses. We were asked to pick one "best" from among them which, inevitably, was whatever we liked the best.

I came away from that day feeling that all I did all day was drink white dog and it was pretty taxing. I wonder, though, if it had been a plate full of aged spirits with one excellently made white dog if it wouldn't have been the white dog that cut through.

Yeah, it seems unfair to everyone to have these aged, macrodistilled whiskeys competing against the micros.

Chuck, did you feel like you could discern real differences in all of the white dog styles? Did you think the winners were mostly obvious? Did you taste some real dreck?

[Enabler]

When did Pioneer die out? They were supposed to be making a whiskey.

They died slowly over the past year. About two weeks ago was the end. Here is a post I put up: Pioneer Spirits

I hope it is kosher to do links like this, if not let me know.

And they were doing a whiskey, but just did not end of having the finances to ride out the aging period.