They are always doing something stupid...

[Josh]

The system in place does not limit market access nor does it stifle consumer choice. If there's a market for an alcoholic product, it will be sold in that market.

I appreciate your inside perspective Mat, but that statement is just baloney. I suggest you take a look at the numerous threads complaining about lack of access to a wide variety of stuff, from the BTAC to Four Roses, to Rittenhouse Rye. If you want to pin that on government regulation, fine, but I suggest you do some more reading around here.

Consult the following threads, among many others.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10881

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14228

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12517

Also, consult the line item in our household budget pertaining to gasoline, since I've burned a lot of it making runs to Chicago and Indiana and Kentucky trying to get stuff that is unavailable here. And I'm not the only one, lemme tell ya.

[mrviognier]

Josh, a wholesaler is in business to sell product. There is no conspiracy or collusion on the part of wholesalers to block a product or producer from entering the market. To do so is diametrically opposed to our making a living. If you can't find a product here in Minnesota - a market where there are over 50 wholesalers and no franchise laws (except for beer), than it's attributable to:

- Limited production;

- A conscious decision on the part of a producer to stay out of a market; or,

- The product having been in the market previously, but not having found traction in the market.

And, by the way, every single one of the brands you mention are hard to find solely on the merits of limited production and high demand.

[cowdery]

If you are going to defend alcohol wholesalers generally, Mat, then you can't fall back on relatively benign Minnesota and ignore the rest of the country.

As for the financial benefits of monopoly protection, Dun & Bradstreet says that alcohol wholesalers are far more profitable than the typical wholesaler, earning 66 percent to 83 percent more in profits than the typical wholesaler over a 10 year period.

Your citation to margin variations is about as bogus an argument as you can get. Margins tell you nothing. It's profits and risk that matter.

[DeanSheen]

Josh, a wholesaler is in business to sell product. There is no conspiracy or collusion on the part of wholesalers to block a product or producer from entering the market.

[mrviognier]

If you are going to defend alcohol wholesalers generally, Mat, then you can't fall back on relatively benign Minnesota and ignore the rest of the country.

[mrviognier]

Entering the market, perhaps, but being viable in that market they collude to block beer all the time. Ox has a good story of a local micro beer Holy Moses being pushed out on tap locally because of a similar macro competitor Blue Moon.

[Joshua]

Let me jump in this heated thread to point out that there are both a -UA and a +UA. -UA (Josh) lives in Michigan. +UA (Joshua) lives in Minnesota. This is entirely due to me not looking at names on the member list before going with Joshua. I actually felt pretty bad about it when I saw there was a "Josh."

Thankfully, he's always a good sport about the +UA/-UA business.

[DeanSheen]

So, the distributor is to blame here? I'd argue the issue is really about the producer and not the wholesaler. That and the economies of scale involved. When a micro producer wants to sell beyond their own hometown, they have to go into it with both eyes open. They better have a compelling product, the ability to sell against the competition, and a realistic view of the challenges.

[T Comp]

Quite enjoyable to be on vacation and enjoy the lively art of conversation albeit in its modern form. As I get paid to argue for a living I wouldn't jump into this fray... unless you paid me :grin: . I have e-mailed by Congresswoman my opposition along with points made in Mr. Cowdery's letter on his blog.

[Josh]

I don't mind being confused with +ua at all. People tend to be nicer when that happens.

All kidding aside, many of those brands I mentioned in the "liquor buying experience" thread are indeed limited production. But many of them are not. Four Roses just came into Michigan this year and it flies off the shelves. There was obviously a market for it here, one that was not being served by our distributor dominated system in Michigan.

Even so, why should I have to put up with such a limited selection? Why should I have to basically smuggle liquor into the state and break the law just to have a few sips of Weller 12 or Heaven Hill White label? If we're all gonna be about what's best for the consumer, why not put choices in the hands of the consumers, instead of deciding for them what they can and can't drink legally?

[cowdery]

I will concede that distributors make an easy and sometimes unfair target. Their misguided effort to shove HR 5034 down our thoats isn't helping. I don't fault the distributors, they're simply trying to win with the hand they were dealt. My problem is with the dealer.

As for "Beer Wars," I had to laugh at the astonishing ignorance of this blurb: "a pretty damning indictment of not just the beer industry but contemporary unfettered unregulated capitalism's disturbing excesses." Duh? There is no more regulated and fettered industry than beverage alcohol. Most of the abuses are done under color of "regulation," not through any lack of it.

[mrviognier]

I don't mind being confused with +ua at all. People tend to be nicer when that happens.

[StraightBoston]

All kidding aside, many of those brands I mentioned in the "liquor buying experience" thread are indeed limited production. But many of them are not. Four Roses just came into Michigan this year and it flies off the shelves. There was obviously a market for it here, one that was not being served by our distributor dominated system in Michigan.

Even so, why should I have to put up with such a limited selection? Why should I have to basically smuggle liquor into the state and break the law just to have a few sips of Weller 12 or Heaven Hill White label? If we're all gonna be about what's best for the consumer, why not put choices in the hands of the consumers, instead of deciding for them what they can and can't drink legally?

[Josh]

I'm not sure it's valid to put the lack of availability of Four Roses on the MI distributors -- the limited regional rollout is by intention, according to Jim Rutledge, because they really didn't have enough KSBW stock to go nationwide all at once. Weller 12 also seems constrained (or at least, at times) due to availability from the warehouses at BT.

In general, the selection in MA is pretty grim except for 2 or 3 wonderful stores -- as I recall, MI gets all varieties of VOB but I've never seen it here! I don't know how much of that is due to the iron hands of the distributors and how much is due to regional preference.

I do blame the distributors lobby for the inability to mail-order into the commonwealth...

We only get the 90 proof VOB in Michigan, and it's impossible to find. Seriously. The one place that used to sell it near here no longer carries it.

As far as I can tell, in Michigan the distributors run the show in the liquor business. All the state really does is set prices and collect taxes.

Lemme see, in the past year I've been unfair to a retailer and distributors in general. This thread could be seen as being unfair to state regulators too. I made some comments about Buffalo Trace in the past, so that covers a manufacturer. All that's left is to piss off some consumers and then all my bases would be covered.

How about this: All Scotts are ninnys, and their mothers wear chinese army boots. That should do it.

UPDATE: I know there are more than two active Scotts on the board. By limiting it to two I offend all Scotts even more.

[OscarV]

How about this: Both Scotts are ninnys, and their mothers wear chinese army boots. That should do it.

There's never a Moderator around when you need one.:skep:

[CorvallisCracker]

All Scotts are ninnys,