New Iowa Micro Bourbon

[cowdery]

"Honest, Officer. I meant 'fascist pig' in the nicest way."

[flintlock]

I don't know a lot about it, but this thread seems to me endemic (sp?) of the so-called artisanal distilling industry. With a few exceptions (and I would put Corsair Artisan Distillery in the exception column) they seem to me nothing more than opportunistic profiteers. They have about as much vested interest in bourbon as they do in light sweet crude oil or toaster ovens or anything else that can be bought elsewhere and middle-manned into a profit, or made quick and rushed to market in a bottle designed to appeal to college students.

Give me a bottle of Jim Beam white label any day - we scoff at it but at least it's real quality bourbon made by people who know the stuff, and who were steeped in the trade.

But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...

[craigthom]

I don't agree with that. He's making his own whiskey, rather than bottling something he bought. He's selling it young, yes, but cash flow is necessary for any kind of business, and he's not charging $50 a bottle for it. We need to see more of this.

My problem is strictly with his customer relation skills. The other distilleries (especially Four Roses and Maker's Mark) understand how important word-of-mouth advertising is. This guy doesn't.

[callmeox]

I've said it before but I think it bears repeating. The micros have a big hill to climb because the macro boys put out some fine products.

One can only buy so many "interesting" bottles.

[Josh]

I've said it before but I think it bears repeating. The micros have a big hill to climb because the macro boys put out some fine products.

One can only buy so many "interesting" bottles.

It's even harder to climb that hill when you have a huge chip on your shoulder.

This idea that only ppl who live in Iowa or Chicago will be buying your product so it doesn't matter if you piss everyone else off is incredibly naive. Do a search on "Binny's" and see how many threads come up. Most of us here do a lot of traveling to buy whiskey. There are huge numbers of us within driving distance of Chicago. I make about 1 or 2 trips a year to Chicago just to buy whiskey.

Also this idea that we are snobs here is also pretty dumb. Sure there are some members that claim to drink nothing but BTACs, Stitzel-Weller from the 1960s and their own private bottlings, but most of us can and do appreciate a wide variety of American Whiskey from the bottom shelf up.

I don't know if it's the worst communication ever, but the difference between you, Mr. Brighton, telling us to F off and, say, Drew Kulsveen telling us the same thing, is that Drew and his father already have established brands and contacts in the enthusiast community and they put out a lot of good whiskey that people will buy no matter how he acts. You don't have any of those things.

Like other people said, you'd be better off making friends here than getting defensive. You're doing something we're all for. Why make life hard for yourself?

[IowaJeff]

"One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%."

It seems clear to me that he was not using snob as an attack, but was using it to point out that SB members are not a reflection of the average american whiskey drinker and are not necessarily the intended audience for the product.

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing. He's right, the opinions of the majority of this board on bourbon are vastly different than most american whiskey drinkers, who consider JD (and in Iowa, Templeton) the holy grail.

He then defended the proof with a well-reasoned analysis from a distiller's perspective and invited everyone for a tour.

Sure, we would all prefer to be called 'aficionados' rather than 'snobs' but I don't think offense was intended nor should it be taken.

[p_elliott]

"One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%."

It seems clear to me that he was not using snob as an attack, but was using it to point out that SB members are not a reflection of the average American whiskey drinker and are not necessarily the intended audience for the product.

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing. He's right, the opinions of the majority of this board on bourbon are vastly different than most american whiskey drinkers, who consider JD (and in Iowa, Templeton) the holy grail.

He then defended the proof with a well-reasoned analysis from a distiller's perspective and invited everyone for a tour.

Sure, we would all prefer to be called 'aficionados' rather than 'snobs' but I don't think offense was intended nor should it be taken.

Good post Jeff and I agree wholeheartedly. I think people are bending over backwards to find offence to his post. Why is it every time a micro distiller comes on here they are attacked but when one of the big boys come on here people line up and kiss their ass?

[wadewood]

"One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%."

It seems clear to me that he was not using snob as an attack, but was using it to point out that SB members are not a reflection of the average american whiskey drinker and are not necessarily the intended audience for the product.

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing. He's right, the opinions of the majority of this board on bourbon are vastly different than most american whiskey drinkers, who consider JD (and in Iowa, Templeton) the holy grail.

He then defended the proof with a well-reasoned analysis from a distiller's perspective and invited everyone for a tour.

Sure, we would all prefer to be called 'aficionados' rather than 'snobs' but I don't think offense was intended nor should it be taken.

ditto. Look he is doing what we want craft distillers to do- mash, ferment and distill their own product. Yes, it is lower proof and younger than this crowd wants, but Kolin was pretty straight forward about the business reasons for doing so. If you want something different, go start your own craft distillery and start making/selling it yourself.

I, for one, like having those in the industry contribute to these boards. If all you want to do is bash away, no industry people will want to post anything.

[craigthom]

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing.

"good natured ribbing" is something you do with people you know, not strangers.

[Josh]

I like it when industry people stop by, too. The ones that interact with us most sucessfully (like Julian VW and Tim McKenzie) are the ones who respond to questions and are able to take criticism from people who care a lot (maybe too much) about American whiskey without getting defensive. If people in this community think a product or the way someone does business stinks, that industry person is going to hear about it. I like that.

I don't think there's a double standard, either. I hear as much or more Beam, Brown-Forman or Buffalo Trace bashing as I do bashing of micros.

[IowaJeff]

There is a difference between defending your product and acting defensively by attacking your critics. This is the former. He responding to some criticisms of the product by telling us that the target market might not be members of a bourbon message board who incorporate liquor runs into all travel plans and can wax poetic about mash bills, bunkers, and intricate differences in annual releases of essentially the same whiskey. He responding to questions regarding proof by explaining why it is 80 proof.

I'm new here myself. Being able to interact with others who share my interest in bourbon as well as being able to interact with those who make, sell, and distribute bourbon is just plain great. I would hate to see people not post for fear of getting flamed.

Now, back to what this post should be about.

As I said before, I thought the Iowa Bourbon lacked the usual flavor profile of bourbon. pelliot's flavor comparison to Irish whiskey is apt, perhaps I would have liked it more if I had come to it from that angle instead of expecting bourbon flavors. I didn't hate, I finished the bottle happily. I have also recommended it to ardent Templeton followers who love how 'smooth' Templeton is. If you want something to go down smooth (and be made in Iowa), Iowa Bourbon is it. If you want flavors that rock your face off it is not.

I drank about 1/2 of the bottle in cocktails and found it made a light and refreshing manhattan and old-fashioned. I found the quality comparable to other microdistilleries, like Tuthilltown, and its priced better.

[Inthewater]

I agree with IowaJeff and P_Elliott. I found little to no offense and people seem to be blowing what was there way out of proportion.

I have not tried this yet, but I would be willing. Hey, at least it's actually made here.

[ILLfarmboy]

A few thoughts and questions.

Why even post in this thread if the people he's going to reach are not part of his target demographic?

This would be the first micro I've heard of who's target demographic is the average Beam white drinker and not the enthusiast. It would be analogous to a micro-brewer putting out a light tasteless lager meant to compete with Bud Light. Don't micros survive by putting out a niche product and catering to that niche market? Is anyone else struck by this oddity or am I making more of this than there really is?

[Josh]

A few thoughts and questions.

Why even post in this thread if the people he's going to reach are not part of his target demographic?

This would be the first micro I've heard of who's target demographic is the average Beam white drinker and not the enthusiast. It would be analogous to a micro-brewer putting out a light tasteless lager meant to compete with Bud Light. Don't micros survive by putting out a niche product and catering to that niche market? Is anyone else struck by this oddity or am I making more of this than there really is?

I'm going to say something that may shock you, Brad...

Well put, and I completely agree.

[cowdery]

I'm going to say something that may shock you, Brad...

Well put, and I completely agree.

Equally as shocking, so do I. That's why I think this guy is setting himself up for a fall. At some point he's going to wish he'd been nicer to us.

[IowaJeff]

A few thoughts and questions.

Why even post in this thread if the people he's going to reach are not part of his target demographic?

This would be the first micro I've heard of who's target demographic is the average Beam white drinker and not the enthusiast. It would be analogous to a micro-brewer putting out a light tasteless lager meant to compete with Bud Light. Don't micros survive by putting out a niche product and catering to that niche market? Is anyone else struck by this oddity or am I making more of this than there really is?

1 - He answered some questions and criticisms of his product. Just because his target demographic, the demo that will make or break Iowa Bourbon, is not bourbon enthusiasts doesn't mean he can't have a dialogue with them. Opening up a dialogue with a demographic that will not immediately and noticeably affect Iowa Bourbon's bottom line should be applauded.

2 - Many, if not most, microdistillers target demographic is not enthusiasts. Given the opinions of this board and other enthusiast sites on most microdistillery products, if the target were enthusiasts they would all be out of business. Their target demographic is regional. That is their niche. Iowa Bourbon is not competing for the hearts of Van Winkle and Stagg drinkers. Its competing for Iowa spirits consumers who want a product produced in Iowa. Templeton has proved that this can be a profitable demographic. I'm sure with many micros the hope is that the brand will grow and they can market their original product more widely and perhaps develop other products. They are not planning on making their money off of SB members, however, at least initially.

The beer analogy fails. The differences between microbrewers and microdistillers has been well documented. Vastly different products and markets.

[Josh]

1 - He answered some questions and criticisms of his product. Just because his target demographic, the demo that will make or break Iowa Bourbon, is not bourbon enthusiasts doesn't mean he can't have a dialogue with them. Opening up a dialogue with a demographic that will not immediately and noticeably affect Iowa Bourbon's bottom line should be applauded.

2 - Many, if not most, microdistillers target demographic is not enthusiasts. Given the opinions of this board and other enthusiast sites on most microdistillery products, if the target were enthusiasts they would all be out of business.

Again, not correct at all. This idea that people here do nothing but hate on micros is :horseshit: . The most sucessful micros are ones that have made unusual products that the macros are not making. Corsair Gin & Red Absinthe, Old Portero Rye, Koval unaged spirits, Hudson Baby Bourbon, and Balcones Corn Whiskeys to name a few are all examples of this. Even the "micro bottlers" like Templeton, High West, and the W.H. Harrison people are bringing interesting products to the market even if they did not distill them themselves.

Their target demographic is regional. That is their niche. Iowa Bourbon is not competing for the hearts of Van Winkle and Stagg drinkers. Its competing for Iowa spirits consumers who want a product produced in Iowa. Templeton has proved that this can be a profitable demographic. I'm sure with many micros the hope is that the brand will grow and they can market their original product more widely and perhaps develop other products. They are not planning on making their money off of SB members, however, at least initially.

In other words, this distiller is hoping to cash in on consumers who simply want to buy something with "Iowa" on the label. Is that really a viable long-term plan? If the product is no good, then how long will it take for the word to get out?

The beer analogy fails. The differences between microbrewers and microdistillers has been well documented. Vastly different products and markets.

Please explain how.

Finally, IowaJeff, what is the nature of your relationship with this distiller? You seem to know a lot about their business.

[Inthewater]

Not 100% sure, but my guess is that his relationship with them is like mine and P_Elliott's.

He is from Iowa and so are they.

Being from Iowa, where the Templeton "phenomenon" is talked about daily by someone, (usually with no idea about what the real facts are) we are pretty excited for anyone to actually make a burbon / whiskey in the State from scratch. Micro-distillery or not.

I think the distiller came in a little defensive, and tried to make a joke or make light of somethings and some people got all bent out of shape.

Instead of hanging on every word he posted and trying to seeminly make something of nothing, let's just let by-gones be and have a drink?

I am way down for that.

Cheers.

[p_elliott]

Running people off this site seems to be a sport with some people on here.

[IowaJeff]

1 - I never said people on this board do nothing but hate on micros. I said if whiskey enthusiasts were the target market for micros they would fail. I don't think I'm out of line in saying that the majority opinion here (which I share) is that currently micro distilled American whiskey is, with a few exceptions, not as good as what the big boys produce.

2 - Of course micros make unusual products that macros don't. That's beside the point and I never said differently. That their product is different does not necessarily dictate the demographic. The maker of Iowa Bourbon told us what his demographic is and I'm saying that many other micros have similar demographics. I'm not sure what you're arguing. Because micros make unusual products that the big boys don't it logically follows that they depend on bourbon enthusiasts in order to succeed? I would venture to guess that almost everyone on this board would consistently buy a bottle of baby Saz, Ritt 101, etc. over Templeton and I don't think Templeton is shedding a tear over that. Why? Because their business plan likely does not depend on us. Their demographic is casual whiskey drinkers, JD drinkers, and people who take pride (however misplaced) in an Iowa product. Perhaps I was wrong to generalize the 'regional' niche to most micros, but it is definitely a niche for some, and appears to be a niche for Iowa Bourbon.

3 - In an argument anytime someone says "in other words" they are about to grossly misconstrue something. You're true blue. There is nothing wrong with wanting to buy products produced locally. Conversely, there is nothing wrong with making a product locally and using that as a marketing edge. I also never said the product was not good and resent your implication that I did.

4 - RE difference between beer and whiskey. Microbrewers can can make a more flavorful product than macros in a short amount of time. Budweiser does not have an advantage over a microbrewer in making a full, flavorful beer. Jim Beam has an advantage over microdistillers in making a flavorful whiskey, because a lot of the flavor is derived from aging. Beam has the means to age a whiskey for much longer than micros. Hence micros distinguishing themselves based on grain, where it was produced, novelty, etc. See also http://www.whatdoesjohnknow.com/2010/08/30/guest-blog-1-most-craft-whiskeys-suck/ Its apples and oranges.

5 - I hesitate to even respond to this garbage. My relationship is this: I've drank a bottle of Iowa Bourbon and posted my thoughts on SB. I'm from Iowa and see first-hand how Iowa Bourbon is marketed and who buys it. I've never been there, never met anyone affiliated with it. If I was affiliated with Iowa Bourbon would I really post a lackluster review of it online?

_______

Come on, a small distiller came on here and responded to a post about his product. He presumably put a lot of time and money in it and takes pride in it, which he should. Perhaps he was a bit defensive, but clearly meant no offense and attacked no one. I don't know why I stepped in as the defense. I guess I just hope that SB can rise above the classic internet tendency of an outsider making a post and getting flamed by 'insiders.'

[IowaJeff]

I also find this instance particularly ironic.

"You guys are snobs about bourbon, ha ha, I'm the same way about some things."

"SNOBS!! HOW DARE YOU SIR! How dare you enter our oak and leather trimmed lounge and call us snobs-this heinous affront nearly made me spill my vintage Van Winkle 15 on my tuxedo! Jeeves, please see this dreadful man out." [disclaimer - this is an attempt at humor, nothing more].

[Josh]

Nobody's trying to run anybody off or getting bent out of shape. If distillers big or small want a fawning, uncritical audience, then they should go elsewhere.

[p_elliott]

The criticism has been over the top Some times you guys don't know when the horse is dead. Stop beating it it.

[ILLfarmboy]

2 - Of course micros make unusual products that macros don't. That's beside the point and I never said differently. That their product is different does not necessarily dictate the demographic. The maker of Iowa Bourbon told us what his demographic is and I'm saying that many other micros have similar demographics. I'm not sure what you're arguing. Because micros make unusual products that the big boys don't it logically follows that they depend on bourbon enthusiasts in order to succeed? I would venture to guess that almost everyone on this board would consistently buy a bottle of baby Saz, Ritt 101, etc. over Templeton and I don't think Templeton is shedding a tear over that. Why? Because their business plan likely does not depend on us. Their demographic is casual whiskey drinkers, JD drinkers, and people who take pride (however misplaced) in an Iowa product. Perhaps I was wrong to generalize the 'regional' niche to most micros, but it is definitely a niche for some, and appears to be a niche for Iowa Bourbon.

You are asking me to swallow a lot here; product doesn't dictate demographic, and that people who care enough to want to buy locally produced goods generally will not be enthusiasts who will be better educated about those products. Posers? Is that his intended target?

[ILLfarmboy]

I"SNOBS!! HOW DARE YOU SIR! How dare you enter our oak and leather trimmed lounge and call us snobs-this heinous affront nearly made me spill my vintage Van Winkle 15 on my tuxedo! Jeeves, please see this dreadful man out." [disclaimer - this is an attempt at humor, nothing more].

A very poor attempt at humor.

Not all of us are from big cities and I for one am a man of modest means. I'm a redneck and proud of it. I like good whiskey and will drive a considerable distance to get it.