New Iowa Micro Bourbon

[White Dog]

Lately I've been trying to avoid any controversy on this site, but...

I will generalize, Josh, because I do see some patterns in regards to the SB attitude towards Micros. Not all, but generally.

The only way a Micro will get any positive chatter on SB is if they:

1. Spend $200,000 on equipment and raw materials.

2. Put their new make in barrels with absolutely no releases coming out for at least 6 years.

3. Charge $19.99 a 750ml when they finally do release something.

And even if this happens, which it won't due to the economics involved, someone will point out that OGD BIB is better for $3 less.

[ILLfarmboy]

Lately I've been trying to avoid any controversy on this site, but...

I will generalize, Josh, because I do see some patterns in regards to the SB attitude towards Micros. Not all, but generally.

I, and many others took a wait and see attitude when Templeton first began selling whiskey. We even made excuses for them, for a while, hoping that they would actually build a working distillery and lay down their own distillate for aging. But time proved Chuck right. If people like me are jaded, it is because so may micro-distilleries have done just what Templeton has done, failed to transition from a bottler/ buyer of bulk whiskey into distiller.

Stick around White Dog, you too may become jaded.

[White Dog]

I, and many others took a wait and see attitude when Templeton first began selling whiskey. We even made excuses for them, for a while, hoping that they would actually build a working distillery and lay down their own distillate for aging. But time proved Chuck right. If people like me are jaded, it is because so may micro-distilleries have done just what Templeton has done, failed to transition from a bottler/ buyer of bulk whiskey into distiller.

Stick around White Dog, you too may become jaded.

Actually, I've been jaded for years. But this comparison doesn't quite work for me. If this new distillery is doing their own mash and distillation, which it appears they are, there is no comparison to the fraud that is Templeton.

[ILLfarmboy]

Actually, I've been jaded for years. But this comparison doesn't quite work for me. If this new distillery is doing their own mash and distillation, which it appears they are, there is no comparison to the fraud that is Templeton.

A fair point.............

[Inthewater]

A fair point.............

And one I think most of us, at least the Iowa folks here, have been making.

Again, bottoms up, guys.

(glug, glug)

[Inthewater]

Lately I've been trying to avoid any controversy on this site, but...

I will generalize, Josh, because I do see some patterns in regards to the SB attitude towards Micros. Not all, but generally.

The only way a Micro will get any positive chatter on SB is if they:

1. Spend $200,000 on equipment and raw materials.

2. Put their new make in barrels with absolutely no releases coming out for at least 6 years.

3. Charge $19.99 a 750ml when they finally do release something.

And even if this happens, which it won't due to the economics involved, someone will point out that OGD BIB is better for $3 less.

White Dog, this is almost a perfect version of what I have seen here in regards to this type of product.

Great post.

[Josh]

Others have already responded to most of the other points, so I'll just respond to the following

3 - In an argument anytime someone says "in other words" they are about to grossly misconstrue something. You're true blue. There is nothing wrong with wanting to buy products produced locally. Conversely, there is nothing wrong with making a product locally and using that as a marketing edge. I also never said the product was not good and resent your implication that I did.

My point was that he seems more concerned about jumping on the Templeton "Made in Iowa" bandwagon than making good whiskey. I don't recall saying there was anything wrong with buying local. I visit my local farmer's market just about every Saturday morning, and prefer to buy all my produce in season and from local (at least in-state) growers. If anyone's all about local it's me.

5 - I hesitate to even respond to this garbage. My relationship is this: I've drank a bottle of Iowa Bourbon and posted my thoughts on SB. I'm from Iowa and see first-hand how Iowa Bourbon is marketed and who buys it. I've never been there, never met anyone affiliated with it. If I was affiliated with Iowa Bourbon would I really post a lackluster review of it online?

That sort of thing happens from time to time. Your continual defense of this distillery seemed odd to me. I apologize if I offended you by asking the question.

[kbrighton]

Actually, I've been jaded for years. But this comparison doesn't quite work for me. If this new distillery is doing their own mash and distillation, which it appears they are, there is no comparison to the fraud that is Templeton.

Just took these. I hope this clears up any confusion to what I do on a daily basis. Thanks to the Iowa guys who have tried to show you that im not a defensive jerk with a chip on my sholder.

Grains

Mash tun

Fermenters

Stills

Big barrels

Small barrels

Bottling line

Any other questions, fire away. I love doing this for a living and am willing to share my experiences

[DeanSheen]

A fair point.............

Yes but the key word remains "IF".

The whining about lack of acceptance on this board for micros seems to make an unstated case for complete acceptance.

Just because you make it, or in most cases source it, should not demand instant acceptance from an enthusiast crowd.

While I appreciate the spirit of the sentiments about running micros "off the board" without questioning we will not learn and if a producer does not care enough about their product to clarify points of interest then why should I as a consumer care enough to purchase said product?

Recent board history on Micro topics have flushed many 'convenient' advocates out of the woodwork. The presence of blog self promoters and for lack of a better word, shills, diminishes the value and content of this website.

As long as the tone remains civil so too should the skepticism remain as it is vital to our understanding of the products being promoted.

[IowaJeff]

A very poor attempt at humor.

Not all of us are from big cities and I for one am a man of modest means. I'm a redneck and proud of it. I like good whiskey and will drive a considerable distance to get it.

It was a satire of insular message board behavior. I'm not actually saying anyone is rich or has a butler named Jeeves. No offense was intended, hence the disclaimer.

I'm done arguing, I don't even know what its about anymore. Anyway, I'm glad KBrighton isn't thin-skinned and posted some cool pics. Whiskey barrels in Iowa is a beautiful sight!

[Inthewater]

Whiskey barrels in Iowa is a beautiful sight!

Yes it is.

Looks good, actually. Like I said before, even if I don't care for it, at least you actually try to make it.

I DO have a big chip on my shoulder about Templeton, just because of all the incessant ranting and raving about it, and how it is "made" in Templeton, IA.

I actually don't hate the stuff, and we have covered that they say right on the site that it is not distilled in Iowa, but that is not what they sell and project in their adverts.

Anyway, looks good, Kolin. Thanks for sharing the pictures. Gonna give it a try soon and let you know what I think about it. Good luck with the fire-water.

[Inthewater]

I have another question, and this may be a little honest, but was the choice of glass to bottle in made with Templeton in mind? :grin:

Looks awfully familiar, though I have seen a couple others in the same bottle style pre-Templeton around here, for sure.

[kbrighton]

I have another question, and this may be a little honest, but was the choice of glass to bottle in made with Templeton in mind? :grin:

Looks awfully familiar, though I have seen a couple others in the same bottle style pre-Templeton around here, for sure.

Here is the story from our side, although Mr. Bush might tell you something different.

Years ago when we were both start-up companies ('05) we were having a talk about our future packaging designs. We already had a dark rum project in the works, and we told him we were going to use a short, fat bottle. Our dark rum process had always called for used whiskey barrels. We didn't have any, but scott would have some in 2 years. So when his first batch of rye came out in '07 we took 10 of his used barrels. We filled them with rum and let them sit just short of 3 years. In october '09 we emptied the barrels and bottled our first barrel aged spirit. We used our idea of short and fat bottles, even though he had already released his rye 2 years sooner in the same design. People called us out for trying to copy them, but in reality it was the opposite. Now we have a line of 5 aged spirits in the same bottle with similar labels. The bourbon, Apple Brandy, Grape Brandy, Dark Rum and a still awaiting release single malt whiskey. Our dark rum is now aged in our own used bourbon barrels, since we have a lot of them.

[Inthewater]

Interesting.

You can sure see how it would look the other way to people that don't have this info, though.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing. Cool inside info is always encouraged here.

[IowaJeff]

I'll have to get a bottle of the rum sometime. I've had a taste of it and remember liking it. Maybe if I start drinking rum summer will come faster. The single malt should be interesting too - I've liked some of the other micro-distiller single malts I've tried.

Also, I was just on your website and saw that you serve food! That pushes it over the edge for me, I gotta get out there!

[craigthom]

Just took these. I hope this clears up any confusion to what I do on a daily basis. Thanks to the Iowa guys who have tried to show you that im not a defensive jerk with a chip on my sholder.

It's the words that you've written that show you to be a defensive jerk (but, to be fair "jerk" was not the word I really wanted to use; I was being nice).

It's not the whiskey or your process that shows your character; it's the way you reacted to criticism (from Iowa people! Imagine that!).

We get why you need to sell a young whiskey, and we get why, at this time, the "(actually) made in Iowa" thing is what's going to sell it. You need to have money coming in. You can't just sit around for four years, putting money into the product, before any comes out.

But you are selling whiskey, and people are buying it, and they are going to discuss it.

You could have come here, explained what you were doing, shown the pictures, and all that, without insulting anyone. I guarantee you would have been greeted warmly. People would have asked questions, people would have said they liked what you were doing, probably purchased some of it (some already have), and looked forward to buying other products in the future.

Instead, you decided to start off by calling people snobs.

What you could do now is admit that was a mistake and apologize for it. Don't you think it was a bad idea? We understand that you are passionate about this, but don't you think insulting people is the wrong way to go about promotion? Just say so.

[fishnbowljoe]

Well, I figured I'd put my two cents in. JUST BECAUSE I CAN!! :hot:

I'm really getting tired of some of the responses some people give a few new members here. I think a few folks need to back off a little, and stop trying to read too much into a new members posts, or intentions. Was this thread started by Kbrighton? NO! He joined in the thread and tried to explain a bit about his products, and what he's trying to do. He even invited anyone out for a tour of his facility if they're in the area. He also stated that he's trying to branch out, and learn a few things. Did he come in here blatantly advertising or trying to sell his products? NO! He may have made a statement about us bourbon "snobs" but he also explained himself in what was to me, no uncertain terms. He even said that he was a "snob" in some of his pursuits too.

It seems to me that some members here like to stir things up just because. It is also my opinion that there are others who can't wait for someone to start something, then they jump on the band wagon. Wow. That's novel. No original thought processes involved at all. God bless Mr.T. "I pity the fool!"

I fully expect some people to give me a hard time about my post/opinions. (Moderator or not :grin:) No problem. I have big shoulders. I can handle it. Besides, I don't really care one way or another. But before you call me out, just remember the warm welcome we gave Dave Pickerel (amongst others) when he first posted here. Yeah. I jumped on that one too. I won't make that mistake again. It might be a good idea if some of you thought twice before putting your foot in your mouth. Ooops. My bad. Before you change feet. :slappin: Have a nice day. :grin: Joe

[kbrighton]

It's the words that you've written that show you to be a defensive jerk (but, to be fair "jerk" was not the word I really wanted to use; I was being nice).

It's not the whiskey or your process that shows your character; it's the way you reacted to criticism (from Iowa people! Imagine that!).

We get why you need to sell a young whiskey, and we get why, at this time, the "(actually) made in Iowa" thing is what's going to sell it. You need to have money coming in. You can't just sit around for four years, putting money into the product, before any comes out.

But you are selling whiskey, and people are buying it, and they are going to discuss it.

You could have come here, explained what you were doing, shown the pictures, and all that, without insulting anyone. I guarantee you would have been greeted warmly. People would have asked questions, people would have said they liked what you were doing, probably purchased some of it (some already have), and looked forward to buying other products in the future.

Instead, you decided to start off by calling people snobs.

What you could do now is admit that was a mistake and apologize for it. Don't you think it was a bad idea? We understand that you are passionate about this, but don't you think insulting people is the wrong way to go about promotion? Just say so.

We covered the snob comment already. It is known now that I wasn't insulting anyone, just describing your passion for a single product. It was said that "connisour" was the word I was looking for, but personally I do not take offense to being called a wine snob, cigar snob, car snob, etc. as I have been in the past. Thus the inherent problem with the internet; sarcasm doesn't work and subtle wordings are taken the wrong way then blown completely out of proportion. I think we are past it, and can now resume our regularly scheduled whisk(e)y chat..

[cowdery]

When you come into someone else's home two things need to happen for it to be a good experience. The hosts should be kind, generous and gracious hosts, and the guest should learn and respect house rules and customs.

It's not quite as easy as that because the regular community here is so diverse, but it's not a bad analogy.

As Brad pointed out, there's a long history on this board of people coming in all excited about some new distillery only to learn it's a Potemkin. Many people here tried for a long time to give each new claimant the benefit of the doubt. I took a lot of heat for being a spoilsport and peeling back the facades. Every cynic is a disappointed former idealist, after all.

Kbrighton came out of the box hostile, aided and abetted by IowaJeff, and got hostile back. That's not the way to learn the history. It's not the way to say hello. If you don't think you were hostile, go back to the 'guest' analogy. In this house, that was considered a hostile introduction.

It's gotten better since.

Back to the guest analogy, I think it's up to the guest to say "sorry we got off on the wrong foot, let's start over," and we haven't quite gotten there, but close.

Personally, all it took for me to fall in love with you was the pictures, but that's just me, and since you've already said you don't care if I love you or not, my heart aches a little.

But keep doing what you're doing and if you want to hang around here, accept SB.com for what it is...a one-of-a-kind place in cyberspace.

[Virus_Of_Life]

Kbrighton came out of the box hostile, aided and abetted by IowaJeff, and got hostile back. That's not the way to learn the history. It's not the way to say hello. If you don't think you were hostile, go back to the 'guest' analogy. In this house, that was considered a hostile introduction.

No, he didn't Chuck.

Back to the guest analogy, I think it's up to the guest to say "sorry we got off on the wrong foot, let's start over," and we haven't quite gotten there, but close.

We're plenty close enough.

I'll echo Joe's sentiments in that the attitudes are getting a bit much at times. The PR&C is there for that kind of attitude, if you don't get enough there then take a break or play in traffic or something. :slappin:

This person has been about as open as we always ask for, yet somehow still seems to be getting railed. Some people treat KBD that way, and for a reason, but this person had done nothing to deserve it.

And yes, funny how many of us would jokingly refer to ourselves and 'bourbon snobs' yet someone else using it gets such vitriol. I personally am a big snob about bourbon.

[CorvallisCracker]

And yes, funny how many of us would jokingly refer to ourselves and 'bourbon snobs' yet someone else using it gets such vitriol. I personally am a big snob about bourbon.

Oh, that's a pretty typical human trait. The classic example is African-Americans and the n-word. They apply it to themselves all the time, but are (justifiably) upset when someone in another ethnic group uses it. When an outsider uses it, it's an insult (and a negative reaction is justified because it's usually meant as an insult).

The post where KB used the s-word was his first, and his status at that point was outsider, so it got a different reaction than if some long-time SB.com member made a comment like, yeah, we're all bourbon snobs here.

Doesn't make it right, mind you. It's just how people are. It didn't particularly bother me when I read it, but I did think Oh, that's gonna ruffle some feathers.

Would have come across much better if he'd followed the s-word with a . Never underestimate the power of a smiley.

[callmeox]

Where would the world be without snobs and the White Knights who swoop in to straighten them out?

[craigthom]

We covered the snob comment already. It is known now that I wasn't insulting anyone, just describing your passion for a single product. It was said that "connisour" was the word I was looking for, but personally I do not take offense to being called a wine snob, cigar snob, car snob, etc. as I have been in the past. Thus the inherent problem with the internet; sarcasm doesn't work and subtle wordings are taken the wrong way then blown completely out of proportion. I think we are past it, and can now resume our regularly scheduled whisk(e)y chat..

While you may call yourself a snob, and you may not be offended by it, it is generally accepted to be an insult. The word was taken just as it is defined.

Is it your pride that is making you dance all around an apology without actually giving one? Sometimes you just have to suck it up and admit you were wrong.

[craigthom]

Would have come across much better if he'd followed the s-word with a . Never underestimate the power of a smiley.

I strongly disagree. An insult followed by a smiley, or a "no offense", is much worse, since the author is trying to weasel out of what he or she actually wrote while still writing it.

[Josh]

I don't see how asking questions and stating opinions is "stirring things up" or instigating. I don't recall claiming that anybody's mother wore chinese army boots or anything like that. Worse things than "I don't think he cares about making good whiskey" or "I don't understand his business plan" are said about Chris Morris, Bill Samuels and others on a regular basis here. If what I said about Kolin's operation was uncivil then I think we need something added to the rules that explicitly state rules of conduct for responding to retailers and producers, because I honestly cannot tell where the line between opinion and "incivility" is anymore.

Let people who don't know me or have forgotten my YEARS of posts stating how much I like Templeton Rye (it was on my list of recommended whiskeys for a while), my posts on Grand Traverse Distillery and other positive things I've frequently said about micros (in this thread even) paint me as the poster boy for intolerant hatred of micros. I've been accused of worse.

If this operation turns out good product, god bless them. It seems they're doing it "the right way" and that's something I think everyone here can get behind. The attitude is what ticked some off, not that he's a micro-distiller or that he's from Iowa or anything else.