How is your beverage alcohol buying experience?

[cowdery]

An ongoing interest of mine is reforming the laws under which beverage alcohol products are sold in this country, which as we all know is very state-specific. I'm interested in collecting your comments, as alcohol purchasers generally and American-made whiskey purchasers specifically, about what you like and what you don't like about the way booze is sold where you live and shop.

Please remember in your comments to mention what state (or states, if you shop in more than one) you're talking about. Members outside the USA are welcome to play too.

One way to think about it is how does your experience of buying alcohol compare to your experience of buying non-alcohol products, such as other beverages like soft drinks, fruit juices or milk.

Feel free to comment on all sales channels, i.e., bars & restaurants, retail stores, mail order, etc.

I certainly want to hear about states where you, as a whiskey enthusiast, have availability problems, but feel free to talk about any aspect of the consumer experience.

Feel free also to talk about your interests as a citizen and taxpayer aside from your interests as a consumer. Some of the public policy goals of alcohol regulation are: the promotion of temperance, the establishment or maintenance of orderly alcoholic beverage markets, the collection of alcoholic beverage taxes, and the restriction of access to alcoholic beverages by those under the legal drinking age.

And by all means, tell me what you would like to see changed. Tell me how you think it should be.

[ThomasH]

Ill start by saying that Ohio (my place of residence) wasn't always a bad state to buy alcohol in. The selection here used to be great until 1995 when the state started using agency stores and closed all its state run stores. Ever since then, the selection has dwindled and trying to get major new brands introduced into the state is quite an intensive process. I wish more new products were available here and I especially wish our stores were open on Sundays. Most of the problem with the way the liquor business is run here is due to the state's reluctantance to change the way they do business, not so much the public's opposition to alcohol being sold!

Thomas

[Chu'Wuti]

Hi, Charles,

I recently acquired your book and am enjoying reading it in bits and pieces--thank you for the education!

I live in Oklahoma. Here, alcohol cannot be sold on Sundays. The liquor stores close at 9 p.m. Saturday evening and cannot reopen until 10 a.m. Monday. They must also be closed on some holidays:

• New Year's Day
  
• Memorial Day
  
• Fourth of July
  
• Labor Day
  
• Thanksgiving Day
  
• Christmas Day

In addition, no alcoholic beverage above 3.2% alcohol may be sold in grocery stores--that means no wine in addition to the higher proof liquors such as whisky.

I went shopping at my favorite liquor store today and hoped to find a Sazerac Rye, as my son likes it and wants me to try it. What did I learn? We can't get it in Oklahoma.

We cannot get it in Oklahoma--at all. The distributor for Sazerac Rye--as well as distributors for some other whiskies, wines, and so on--are not on the "list." From what I understand, the state liquor lobby develops an approved list; maybe the ones who get approved pay a nice hefty fee to be allowed to sell their products in Oklahoma? I don't know, as I haven't asked. Maybe it has something to do with the "establishment or maintenance of orderly alcoholic beverage markets, the collection of alcoholic beverage taxes," but I don't really think so. It definitely has something to do with temperance beliefs--after all, this is a strong part of the Bible Belt!

I can get my favorite Scotch as well as a number of others. Bourbons are hit and miss; same with wines. My DH and I generally shop in Sacramento, CA or Portland, OR when we want to pick up anything we can't get in Oklahoma.

Most restaurants offer a very limited selection (3 wines, 3 "other) of wines and other beverages. Bars, on the other hand, have a greater selection but generally not the high-end/higher quality things (i.e., no good Scotches, no good bourbons, etc.)--most of the drinkers who go to bars in our town are college students (mostly undeveloped palates) or people who are happy with Coors or Budweiser.

Shipment of alcoholic beverages to individuals in the state of Oklahoma is illegal. I know some people have things shipped in as "grape juice," but it is definitely illegal, and if anything broke and were identifiable as alcoholic, they would receive a very hefty fine.

It can be frustrating if I let it, but I've lived here a long time. As I mentioned, we often shop out-of-state (CA, OR, sometimes KS or CO) to find alternatives. That helps--as long as we can travel!

Thanks for your interest!

[Chris24]

I live in WA.

I don't mind paying taxes on liquor. I don't like paying a higher prices than other states, but the key to me is availability.

The state does provide a large special order list, but you must order by the case which is usually 12 bottles. Additionally many that I used to be able to get in Colorado or NY are nowhere to be found.

Liquor delivery or at least in state availability from all distilleries would be a god send. There are so many different bourbons (and rums and others) that I would purchase if I saw them at my local store.

I would be the state's best customer given the opportunity.

Our state has several initiatives to remove the state's monopoly on liquor, so I'm looking forward to voting this November.

[Josh]

I'm in Michigan, of course, and we are a control state. But as control states go, our system is fairly easy-going. The state monopoly is on the wholesale level. All liquor stores (for some reason they are mostly called Party Stores up here) are privately owned and operated, as are the distrubtors. Perhaps as a result of this dusties are pretty easy to find. This system is only for liquor. The state does nothing (other than taxes and bottle/can deposits) to regulate wine, beer, cider, etc.

The state also sets minimum prices for liquor at the retail level, with a decent amount of profit built in. This does not stop retailers from tacking on even more profit, but there are enough retailers that sell at the state minimum that there is a a lot of downward pressure on those prices. The minimum prices themselves are tolerable, no more than $2-5 more expensive than in neighboring non-control states. If there is any gouging, it is usually with higher-end stuff. Many stores that advertise "state minimum" pricing will charge more for top shelf products.

My two biggest complaints are selection and distribution. The state grants 4 or 5 companies the right to be liquor distributors. Oscar can probably speak more to this with specific examples of his dealing with the distributor that handles BT, but often a lot of shenanigans go on with distributors trying to pressure retailers into carrying certain brands in order to get special releases or whatnot. I suspect some of the gouging on the upper end is a result of this sort of thing.

Selection is really not too bad, but there is a lot of room for improvement. I don't know how much is the result of delibrate decisions by producers or what, but the following American Whiskeys I like are unavailable in Michigan:

Four Roses SBBS Annual Releases

Four Roses Mariage

Very Old Barton BiB, 80, 86

HH BiB 6 y/o (white label)

Rowan's Creek, Noah's Mill, Black Maple Hill

Willet's Pot Still bottle

Old Fitz BiB

Very Special Old Fitz

Weller 12 y/o

AAA 10 y/o

Rittenhouse BiB

Geo. Dickel Barrel Select

Mellow Corn BiB

Virginia Lightning (recently de-listed)

Any private bottlings.

Any Wild Turkey special releases

Unavailable in handles: Old Forester Signature, Four Roses

These are available, but fairly hard to find, (although I do know where to find all of these):

Very Old Barton 90

Old Charter 10 y/o

Old Forester Signature

Weller Antique 107

Four Roses, yellow label, small batch and single barrel (new to the state)

Buffalo Trace Antique Collection

Old Rip Van Winkle 90 & 107

Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o

Wild Turkey Rye

Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye

I do shop in Illinois (Binny's), Indiana and Kentucky fairly regularly and I find they have a much, much better selection than we do here. One thing that annoys me about Indiana, though, is that liquor stores are closed all day on Sunday and for many years liquor stores were not allowed to sell groceries, so a lot of them are pretty seedy and one has to walk past racks of girly magazines when entering or exiting the store. Michigan has a number of these seedy ones as well. As a result, my wife refuses to go into them. This has means I often end up spending more than I would if she wasn't there, so I guess that's a good thing from my perspective.

One of the things I love about shopping in the three states mentioned above is the availability of private bottlings. I like trying a different spin on some of my favorites, or even stuff I don't like too much.

I have always had a great experience shopping at Binny's, especially when Joe brings out the shopping cart o' dusty magic.:bowdown:

[harshest]

Well Josh hit on a lot of the things I was going to say about Michigan. As relative new bourbon drinker I do wish there was more of a selection, I don't understand the reasoning of not letting certain products not be sold here. The one really big gripe I have is that liquor never goes on sale, unlike beer and wine. In other control states the state will sometimes set sale prices on certain products, but not here. I do like the fact that if a store doesn't carry a product and it's available you can have it ordered and there is no minimum.

I don't have a big problem with MI setting a price for products I just wish they didn't limit the products that are sold here.

I would also like to see the market opened up so that stores could get any product that is available from any distiller. I know that will never happen but who knows.

[OscarV]

I think one of the problems in MI is as Josh stated with the selection of annual and special releases, but also the bigger problem is our fellow consumers.

Why should a store stock all the bourbon that is available to them from the MI catalog when their customers only want vodka, spiced rum, Canadian (brown vodka) whiskey, schnapps and for that super special occasion Bailey's Irish Creme.

I have no problem with a lot of retailers when it comes to making a special order for me, they are glad to do it.

When it comes to beer you can't beat MI's selection, we are 2nd to none, but that is because the consumers support the wide beer variety.

It's the MI indoor culture, beer, cigarettes and euchre.

[sku]

We have it pretty good in California. There are no restrictions, as far as I'm aware, on hours of operation of liquor stores. Liquor can be sold in supermarkets and internet shipping is legal.

We don't have spirit auctions like New York, which I would like to see.

Of course, we have the three tier system and other restrictions like everyone else and I would love to be able to buy from a wider variety of sources (international websites, ebay, direct from distilleries), but compared to what I've seen in many other states, we don't have much to complain about.

[ACDetroit]

As a dusty hunter in MI, I can not really complain much about our system. It is still possible to find old stuff on the shelves here if you are willing to look for it. The current line up for bourbon is great and if you build a rapport with the store owner the special order feature can get you just about anything one could want.

The 3 distributors her in MI are National wine and spirits, General wine and Liquor and I believe J Lewis Cooper. To the defense of the 3 distributors, they have to deal with the State commission when purchasing booze. here is a quote for the commission.

Uniform Price, Taxes & Mark-up:

All off-premise retail licensees must sell spirits to consumers at the uniform price set by the

Commission. This uniform price is determined as follows: Vendor of Spirits files price

quotations with the Commission. The Commission takes the per case quoted price as submitted

by the Vendor of Spirits and determines the per bottle price, then adds a 65% mark-up to it. A

series of specific taxes (4% specific tax for school aid fund, a 4% specific tax for the general

fund, a 4% specific tax for convention facilities & tourism and a 1.85% specific tax for liquor

purchase revolving fund), are then calculated on the price after the mark-up. The 1.85% tax is

added only on sales to off-premise licensees. In addition, there is a 6% sales tax collected

separately by the retail licensee. All retail licensees receive a 17% discount on purchases from

the Commission that is calculated before any specific taxes but after the mark-up has been added

to the Commission’s cost. On-premise retailers may sell spirits at any price above their cost.

[ILLfarmboy]

One thing that annoys me about Indiana, though, is that liquor stores are closed all day on Sunday and for many years liquor stores were not allowed to sell groceries, so a lot of them are pretty seedy and one has to walk past racks of girly magazines when entering or exiting the store. Michigan has a number of these seedy ones as well. As a result, my wife refuses to go into them.

[OscarV]

My only other complaint which doesn't apply just to Michigan and has been repeated over and over on this board and other places is the general lack of knowledge of whiskey at the POS level. This goes fro retailer, restaurants etc. (no not BINNY'S Thank you Joe and Brett!) It just seems to me if I wanted to sell something I might want to know a little about it!

[MarkEdwards]

I'm in Texas, specifically the Dallas/Fort Worth area, in Arlington.

We have a crazy quilt of wet and dry areas. I grew up in Balch Springs, where you couldn't even buy beer. My dad had to drive 30 miles to buy a six pack. He'd buy it, and drive home, drinking a beer - this was before it was illegal around here to drive while drinking beer!

The law forbids buying any alcoholic beverages before 7am, and the liquor stores are closed on Sundays. Arlington only recently began allowing grocery stores to sell wine.

Oh, almost forgot my favorite weird experience. Cash registers beep the "check id warning" for alcohol-free beer, but not for alcohol-free wine. Both have less alcohol than cough medicine, which has no restriction...

[ratcheer]

Alabama - strict control state. Cannot order via internet. Stores open late and close early. No Sunday sales. High taxes. Limited selection.

Bleh!

Tim

[BBQ+Bourbon]

Missouri is a great place to be a drinker. Every store carries whatever spirit they care to have, and I don't recall a day when liquor sales were prohibited. Prices for current bottles are among the best in the country and selection is great.

I came from Kansas, and that seemed like the most inbred, backwards state possible. After reading Sandy's post, it seems Oklahoma has Kansas beat, by a good margin.

[cowdery]

Being in Chicago I have Binny's, which is probably all that needs to be said. I buy here and in Kentucky and there isn't a lot of difference, except that in Kentucky I can buy all of the oddball BIBs and that sort of thing that doesn't make it up north. Prices are about as good as anywhere, as are hours of operation. Although I have Binny's, I can also buy spirits at supermarkets, convenience stores, drug stores, just about everywhere. There are no minimum prices so stores can have closeout sales. They can do whatever they want. The state limits hours of operation and every place that sells alcohol has to be licensed, and has to prominently post their license number, but other than that it's pretty loose. I know when I worked in sales promotion for liquor companies we loved Illinois because you can do just about anything here. I'm talking about anything legal, but for the right price you can do anything anything too.

[SBOmarc]

I can't really add anything to the California experience that has not already been said. We do pay more because of the 3 tier system. I don't know what can be done to remedy this. Availabilty isn't always the best and once you add in the shipping to get internet bottles you usually end up paying even more.

We do have places to shop like Hi Times and now Total Wine and Spirits. The first being THE place to go, but no real break in price...The second with great prices but limited in availabilty.

I will also add that the American Whiskey selection in bars is getting better, but it had to as it could not have gotten much worse.

[jburlowski]

I live in KY so selection is not a problem. However, since there a lot of knowledgable bourbon drinkers in these parts, the limited editions / specialty bottlings sometimes have a tendency to sell quickly.

In terms of laws, the irritants are few and minor. Some localities have some hour restrictions on liquor by the drink (particularly Sunday mornings). Also, until the last year or two, many localities closed liquor stores on Sundays.

Lastly, like many places I've lived, you can't buy a drink on election day until the polls close. Man, just when you really need a stiff one. :smiley_acbt:

[ratcheer]

This is an unusual and great thread, Chuck. Thanks for starting it.

[fishnbowljoe]

The three states that I buy most from are Illinois, Wisconsin, and Kentucky. As far as Illinois and Kentucky are concerned, my experiences are almost exactly like Chuck's. I am about 55-60 miles to the nearest Binny's, and about 20 miles or so from Everett's. FWIW, Everett's is just a couple of blocks inside the state line with Wisconsin. The one thing I've noticed here in Illinois are the differences in taxes. Illinois as a whole had a tax increase on alcohol a year or so ago. The main difference I've seen here is in county taxes. Some have extra taxes on liquor, and some don't.

Wisconsin is just a bit farther from me than Everett's. Wisconsin is not quite the same as Illinois when it comes to purchasing alcohol. For one thing, the taxes are a bit cheaper. The selection is different too. It's not better or worse, just different. The are laws against distributing across state lines, so there is a slight a difference in what is available. It's almost funny in a way. I can drive just a few minutes north of Everett's, and have different things to choose from.

I consider myself pretty lucky when it comes to purchasing bourbons. I live in an area where, for the most part, I have a great selection to choose from. I can also find a dusty or two from time to time. What I can't find here, I usually manage to pick up on my trips to Kentucky for the KBF or Sampler. All in all, not too many complaints. :grin: Cheers! Joe

[harshest]

I think one of the problems in MI is as Josh stated with the selection of annual and special releases, but also the bigger problem is our fellow consumers.

You aren't kidding. This document from the MLCC shows the top 30 sales by liquor code for the last half of last year. Not only are there no bourbons on the list there aren't even any whiskeys on the list. I find it had to believe that JD didn't make the list. Apparently this is a gin, vodka and rum state. And by rum I mean Capitan Morgan...

[Rughi]

Apparently this is a gin, vodka and rum state...

Oh, don't be so harsh on your state. That list speaks of alcoholics getting their fix, not enthusiast choices.

It looks to me like all of the top 20 are Alcoholic's Maintenance Products - none of these sales are to people who can even plan ahead enough to buy 750's. Only a few of the top 30 are even party mixers.

But then again, what do I know? I judge spirits one bottle at a time, not a thousand cases at a time.

Roger

[Josh]

Oh, don't be so harsh on your state. That list speaks of alcoholics getting their fix, not enthusiast choices.

It looks to me like all of the top 20 are Alcoholic's Maintenance Products - none of these sales are to people who can even plan ahead enough to buy 750's. Only a few of the top 30 are even party mixers.

But then again, what do I know? I judge spirits one bottle at a time, not a thousand cases at a time.

Roger

[doubleblank]

Texas is a great state for buying alcohol with the exception of shipping hard liquor which is prohibited. But that generally isn't a problem as Texas has a great selection of all fine spirits. Store hours are reasonable. At some of the megastores like Specs, you can get your bourbon, wine, beer, glassware, on-site roasted coffee beans, gourmet cheeses, fresh produce, walk into the humidor and grab a single or box of cigars, head to the deli for a great sandwich, etc etc at a single location.

The only significant change I could hope for would be to allow grocery stores to sell hard liquor. Liquor stores can sell groceries here, but not vice versa. Grocers often sell beer as a loss leader to get traffic into the store. They might do the same with cheaper spirits too like rum and vodka.

Bars can still have happy hour.....but they can't advertise exactly what that is until you enter the premisis.

Randy

[ILLfarmboy]

Bars can still have happy hour.....but they can't advertise exactly what that is until you enter the premisis.

[ErichPryde]

Oklahoma is an interesting example to bring up. Many Sazerac items are not on "the list." Rock Hill Farms, Sazerac Rye, Buffalo Trace- none of those can be brought into the state. the BTAC doesn't make it into OK, either. at all.

Interestingly, I've found dusty RHF IN OKC, so at one point it was on "the list," in about 1997. I'm not sure when it fell off of the esteemed and glorious list, but it did.

Strangely, OK was selling Four Roses products a year before the clamor on this board lit up about Four Roses being outside of kentucky. I have no idea why, but they had both the small batch and single barrel available. Only "recently" did most other states get FR products... Not sure how this happened.

Another distinct advantage of OK is the relatively low liquor tax. Some examples: PVW 20 regularly priced @ 70, Four Roses mariage available for 59, the newest tradition release was 89, Rare breed regularly priced at 32. Most everything that is available in Oklahoma is available for about 7 dollars less (at 40 dollars) than it is in Kansas and many other states.

Although there is significantly more selection in KS, Rock Hill farms didn't make the list there, either. Kansas has the same ridiculous no-sunday sales law.

There is an upside to having no liquor in grocery stores though, and it hasn't been mentioned yet- MOST grocery stores do not care to carry more than the "big names" and a couple of other required selections. They only have so much shelf space. Can they order it for you? maybe. This wouldn't be a problem, Except the other thing that happens when grocery stores pick up liquor, is that there seems to be a reduction in the number of liquor stores that actually WILL stock the things you want. Perfect example is here in tucson.

I have three options- I can go to bevmo, where everything is available and disappears the same day it comes in, I can go to the super-seedy, porn filled hellhole down the street that most assuredly won't have what I'm looking for because all they sell is 24 oz cans of beet and 40s and don't bother to stock more than 2 kinds of "bourbon" (and one of them is crown), or I can go to the grocery store.

I miss the fact that there were/are more liquor store options in OK and KS. With 6 different stores all carrying the same item (say, Lot , one of them is bound to be cheaper than the others. Here, only two, maybe three places, can even GET something like Lot B and with no competition, it is bound to be as high as they can sell it for.

There is a relatively weird advantage to being in Tucson, though. 1.75L bottles of things like Jack and Jim have some odd prices. Jack Daniels is regularly priced at about 32 bucks for a 1.75L. I've seen a handle of Maker's for the same price. In OK or KS, it would be slightly over 40, maybe even closer to 50, for either one. The same weird pricing is true of handles of Jim, Sailor Jerry, and quite a few others. I guess if I cared to get any of them on a regular basis, I'd be set.