High West Pioneer!

[Leopold]

But what Perkins is doing is no different than what Parker & Craig Beam do or Jimmy Russell does. They all take whiskeys of different ages from the same distillery and blend them together to produce a yummy product. I don't see the difference, really.

Respectfully, this is insane.

You're comparing a guy with a phone and a few months of distilling experience, to actual real life distillers with more hands on experience mashing, fermenting, distilling, and aging whiskey than anyone in the world. They actually made the whiskey that they are blending.

I promise you that Mr. Perkins knows how different he is from the gentlemen you mentioned.

I'm starting on my 16th year of my career, and I have to do that 3 more times before I've been at it as long as Jimmy Russell. At this point, I'm a flash in the pan, and he's the real McCoy. You can count Mr. Perkins distilling career in months.

No offense to Mr. Perkins, as I am quite confident he'll agree with my assessment.

And no offense to you Josh, but I respectfully disagree with this statement. You're not the only one who think that, as an example, John Glaser is the same thing as a distiller. You guys should grab a few of your favorite bottles and a graduated cylinder. You'll come up with a blend you love in no time, I can assure you.

[callmeox]

Respectfully, this is insane.

You guys should grab a few of your favorite bottles and a graduated cylinder. You'll come up with a blend you love in no time, I can assure you.

I made the same assertion in the comments section on John's "pioneer" blog entry and was treated like a heretic by his minions.

As these are all consumer choices, I think the visceral reaction is that their choice was validated by a "expert" and anyone who counters that validation threatens their consumer standing.

[Leopold]

I want to be clear in saying that I think that it's great that Mr. Perkins won this award, and that there's nothing wrong with blending. I support what Mr. Perkins is doing.

But please don't conflate blenders with distillers. It's not the same thing. At all.

[SMOWK]

Josh, I think you are right on.

The best analogy is probably what is going on at Four Rose every day. 10 recipes, and countless phenomenal products. The folks there have the ability to make good whiskey AND the ability to blend across diverse offerings to create stunning whiskeys.

I don't think Four Roses makes very good whiskey at all. The fact that High West has taken tips from Jim Rutledge scares me.

[Josh]

Respectfully, this is insane.

You're comparing a guy with a phone and a few months of distilling experience, to actual real life distillers with more hands on experience mashing, fermenting, distilling, and aging whiskey than anyone in the world. They actually made the whiskey that they are blending.

I promise you that Mr. Perkins knows how different he is from the gentlemen you mentioned.

I'm starting on my 16th year of my career, and I have to do that 3 more times before I've been at it as long as Jimmy Russell. At this point, I'm a flash in the pan, and he's the real McCoy. You can count Mr. Perkins distilling career in months.

No offense to Mr. Perkins, as I am quite confident he'll agree with my assessment.

And no offense to you Josh, but I respectfully disagree with this statement. You're not the only one who think that, as an example, John Glaser is the same thing as a distiller. You guys should grab a few of your favorite bottles and a graduated cylinder. You'll come up with a blend you love in no time, I can assure you.

Read some more of what I have posted on the subject. Then you will see that you have taken my comments completely out of context. Life is too short to flame people who actually agree with you.

[SMOWK]

You're comparing a guy with a phone and a few months of distilling experience, to actual real life distillers with more hands on experience mashing, fermenting, distilling, and aging whiskey than anyone in the world. They actually made the whiskey that they are blending.

Considering a lot of people really like HW products, David must be one hell of a fast learner.

[Josh]

I've clarified my statement via pm to Todd but I should probably do it here too.

I was trying to say the following:

One aspect of what the Beams and Rutledge and the Russells do is mixing barrels of different ages together. David Perkins also does this. That was my only point.

Do they do a hell of a lot more? Yes. They create the same whiskeys they marry together. There's a lot of craft in doing that, at least as much as in mixing.

[Leopold]

Considering a lot of people really like HW products, David must be one hell of a fast learner.

You misunderstood what I'm saying. A lot of people like what I'm doing, too, but that doesn't mean that you should be mentioning me in the same sentence as Jimmy Russell. I don't mean disrespect to Mr. Perkins. And for the record, I really like High West's spirits, too. His oat unaged spirit is lovely.

A little respect for the old guard isn't a bad thing.

[Leopold]

I've clarified my statement via pm to Todd but I should probably do it here too.

I was trying to say the following:

One aspect of what the Beams and Rutledge and the Russells do is mixing barrels of different ages together. David Perkins also does this. That was my only point.

Do they do a hell of a lot more? Yes. They create the same whiskeys they marry together. There's a lot of craft in doing that, at least as much as in mixing.

If you don't mind me adding to this, Mr. Russell and the other whiskey distillers aren't doing the same thing in another way. The distillers can tailor every step of their processes--- grain bill, yeast selection, barrel selection, rickhouse selection, etc.--- with an eye towards the final blend. A blender, except in very unique circumstances, doesn't have a hand in any of these steps.

As an example, I only make single-singles for my American whiskies. But I tailor my entire production with the notion that I'm not going to blend.

Make sense?

Edit to add--- Josh, I apologize for misunderstanding your post.

[Josh]

If you don't mind me adding to this, Mr. Russell and the other whiskey distillers aren't doing the same thing in another way. The distillers can tailor every step of their processes--- grain bill, yeast selection, barrel selection, rickhouse selection, etc.--- with an eye towards the final blend. A blender, except in very unique circumstances, doesn't have a hand in any of these steps.

As an example, I only make single-singles for my American whiskies. But I tailor my entire production with the notion that I'm not going to blend.

Make sense?

Edit to add--- Josh, I apologize for misunderstanding your post.

Excellent points. And no apology needed. I should have been more clear in the first place. I hope to be able to pick up a bottle of your whiskey sometime!

[jinenjo]

Final word: He's only a pioneer if he wears a coon-skin cap.

[squire]

Very informative discussion.

[MarkEdwards]

Final word: He's only a pioneer if he wears a coon-skin cap.

Actually, he's only a pioneer if his ears are made of pions.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pion

[silverfish]

David Driscoll offers up some thoughts on this "controversy" on his blog

and lets us know that David Perkins will be a podcast guest later this

week.

[notamormon]

Hi all,

David Perkins here. Provocative thread to say the least. Of course I'm honored and humbled to be named a Pioneer. Not here to agree or disagree with anyone's opinions on that. Everyone is right, blending isn't rocket science and every distillery does it in some form that I was able to "learn" from (I covered that in another SB post). I'd never compare myself to Parker Beam or Jimmy Russell or Jim Rutledge or John Glaser. They have been doing this all their lives and are titans in this industry. I still like Chuck and agree with his objective: smoke out inaccuracies and BS. However, to clarify again, as I have in several older SB posts, Chuck's facts were not correct from the beginning and I need to point out Chuck's inaccuracies. High West never had an "under construction" page. High West did have a very simple 3 page site that had the text from our back labels on them. And yes the text on our back label said "we sourced the whiskies from back east." It always did. On the simple site, we had a picture of our still, and we also talked about our vodka which High West has distilled since 2007 after we got our DSP. And I think everyone gets it that it would be hard for me to claim that I made a 16 year old whiskey when I've only been in the business since I quit my job in 2004. I'm not going to get into the rest of the details here again because I think I've covered it in great depth in several other SB posts.

And for some fun facts: High West doesn't just blend old and young whiskey from one distillery (LDI). We actually have whiskeys from Four Roses, Barton, and LDI. Rendezvous blends 6yo LDI with 16yo Barton. Double Rye! blends 2yo LDI and 16 year old Barton. The fun part is, the 16yo's have different mashbills. In Rendezvous, the 16yo has 80% rye, 10% corn, and 10% malt. This was a real shocker to people to know there was an older rye with that high of a rye mashbill. The 16yo in Double Rye has a more conventional rye whiskey mashbill with 53% rye, 37% corn, and 10% malt. Was I lucky when I sourced these? Very! And Bourye is a blend of Four Roses, LDI, and Barton.

Hope that clarifies just a little bit. Thanks to everyone for taking an interest in the discussion, no matter what your opinion!

[Josh]

Thanks for the clarifications David! How did you get your hands on the Four Roses? Was it obtained from 4R directly or through Diageo?

[nor02lei]

Hi all,

David Perkins here. Provocative thread to say the least. Of course I'm honored and humbled to be named a Pioneer. Not here to agree or disagree with anyone's opinions on that. Everyone is right, blending isn't rocket science and every distillery does it in some form that I was able to "learn" from (I covered that in another SB post). I'd never compare myself to Parker Beam or Jimmy Russell or Jim Rutledge or John Glaser. They have been doing this all their lives and are titans in this industry. I still like Chuck and agree with his objective: smoke out inaccuracies and BS. However, to clarify again, as I have in several older SB posts, Chuck's facts were not correct from the beginning and I need to point out Chuck's inaccuracies. High West never had an "under construction" page. High West did have a very simple 3 page site that had the text from our back labels on them. And yes the text on our back label said "we sourced the whiskies from back east." It always did. On the simple site, we had a picture of our still, and we also talked about our vodka which High West has distilled since 2007 after we got our DSP. And I think everyone gets it that it would be hard for me to claim that I made a 16 year old whiskey when I've only been in the business since I quit my job in 2004. I'm not going to get into the rest of the details here again because I think I've covered it in great depth in several other SB posts.

And for some fun facts: High West doesn't just blend old and young whiskey from one distillery (LDI). We actually have whiskeys from Four Roses, Barton, and LDI. Rendezvous blends 6yo LDI with 16yo Barton. Double Rye! blends 2yo LDI and 16 year old Barton. The fun part is, the 16yo's have different mashbills. In Rendezvous, the 16yo has 80% rye, 10% corn, and 10% malt. This was a real shocker to people to know there was an older rye with that high of a rye mashbill. The 16yo in Double Rye has a more conventional rye whiskey mashbill with 53% rye, 37% corn, and 10% malt. Was I lucky when I sourced these? Very! And Bourye is a blend of Four Roses, LDI, and Barton.

Hope that clarifies just a little bit. Thanks to everyone for taking an interest in the discussion, no matter what your opinion!

[JohnHansell]

Hope that clarifies just a little bit. Thanks to everyone for taking an interest in the discussion, no matter what your opinion!

[Leopold]

Very humble response. I've said it before elsewhere, but congratulations.

Then one part I didn't mention is to explain to some that don't quite understand why Mr. Hansell gave him the Pioneer Award.

I can't speak for Mr. Hansell, obviously, but it is very unlikely that Mr. Perkins is the last to try the approach of blending as well as distilling. In fact, I can name two other shops that are also purchasing bulk whiskey for blending right now, with the notion of building a cash reserve for later activities. This method will, in the end, lead to more whiskey for you chaps to buy from new distilleries. Mr. Perkins was the 1st to use this model, so far as I'm aware. So the award makes sense, as others will surely follow his lead. Which is kinda neat.

Well, that's not entirely true. We purchased select barrels of Pisco starting in 2003 that we did nothing more than dilute with water and sell at our onsite pub in Ann Arbor. But that was Pisco, and it was from a single source, and outside of selecting barrels that I preferred over others for a final blend, it wasn't the same kind of blending. And it certainly wasn't whiskey, which is what this award is for....

I think that the award makes sense. Are there other deserving candidates? Sure, but there always are for these sorts of things. It's sour grapes not to congratulate receiving such a prestigious award!

[White Dog]

Hi all,

David Perkins here. Provocative thread to say the least. Of course I'm honored and humbled to be named a Pioneer. Not here to agree or disagree with anyone's opinions on that. Everyone is right, blending isn't rocket science and every distillery does it in some form that I was able to "learn" from (I covered that in another SB post). I'd never compare myself to Parker Beam or Jimmy Russell or Jim Rutledge or John Glaser. They have been doing this all their lives and are titans in this industry. I still like Chuck and agree with his objective: smoke out inaccuracies and BS. However, to clarify again, as I have in several older SB posts, Chuck's facts were not correct from the beginning and I need to point out Chuck's inaccuracies. High West never had an "under construction" page. High West did have a very simple 3 page site that had the text from our back labels on them. And yes the text on our back label said "we sourced the whiskies from back east." It always did. On the simple site, we had a picture of our still, and we also talked about our vodka which High West has distilled since 2007 after we got our DSP. And I think everyone gets it that it would be hard for me to claim that I made a 16 year old whiskey when I've only been in the business since I quit my job in 2004. I'm not going to get into the rest of the details here again because I think I've covered it in great depth in several other SB posts.

And for some fun facts: High West doesn't just blend old and young whiskey from one distillery (LDI). We actually have whiskeys from Four Roses, Barton, and LDI. Rendezvous blends 6yo LDI with 16yo Barton. Double Rye! blends 2yo LDI and 16 year old Barton. The fun part is, the 16yo's have different mashbills. In Rendezvous, the 16yo has 80% rye, 10% corn, and 10% malt. This was a real shocker to people to know there was an older rye with that high of a rye mashbill. The 16yo in Double Rye has a more conventional rye whiskey mashbill with 53% rye, 37% corn, and 10% malt. Was I lucky when I sourced these? Very! And Bourye is a blend of Four Roses, LDI, and Barton.

Hope that clarifies just a little bit. Thanks to everyone for taking an interest in the discussion, no matter what your opinion!

Thank you for responding, David. When you sourced the Barton was it owned by Constellation or Sazerac?

Am I the only one wondering why Barton is selling off 16yr Rye rather than creating a label and releasing it to market?!?:shocked: :bigeyes:

Once again, if any majors are listening, if you have any aged Rye sitting around, I'm sure there are at least hundreds of SBers who are dying to try it. Just don't price it above $100. Trust me, if you have mature rye stocks, they will sell. It's mind boggling to me that they would sell it to High West. Good for you, David, but wow!

[squire]

Clarifying and informative David, thanks for dropping by.

[notamormon]

A quick follow-up to a few questions:

- Josh: I got the Four Roses through Pernod Ricard. When I told Jim Rutledge this, he didn't even know Pernod had Four Roses stock!

- Whitedog (!): I also got the Barton from Pernod who got it from Hiram Walker when they bought Hiram. No one knows how Hiram got it.

- Leif: we bottled the 80% rye 16 year old (10% corn 10% malt) I thought it was so unusual and beautiful I has to sell it on its own.

- John and Squire: you are welcome!

[Josh]

A quick follow-up to a few questions:

- Josh: I got the Four Roses through Pernod Ricard. When I told Jim Rutledge this, he didn't even know Pernod had Four Roses stock!

- Whitedog (!): I also got the Barton from Pernod who got it from Hiram Walker when they bought Hiram. No one knows how Hiram got it.

- Leif: we bottled the 80% rye 16 year old (10% corn 10% malt) I thought it was so unusual and beautiful I has to sell it on its own.

- John and Squire: you are welcome!

I love answers that raise even more questions.

Thanks for the response!

[callmeox]

Great info David. Thanks for taking the time to participate.

[silverfish]

The aforementioned Driscoll/Perkins podcast is now on-line.