Overaged Bourbon

[macdeffe]

Hi Sutton

I talked about the char in the barrel with a couple of distillery owners

I am not sure we talk about the same, but when casks are received by distilleries thay have been recharred and there's a handful or three woodchips like leftovers rolling around in the barrel

Now the first distillery owner, new in the business simply removed it. The 2nd I talked to confirmed the presence of these woodchips and he said he left them in. Apparently they have a cleansiong effect on the spirit, removing sulphurous element, ie helping the whisky to mature

Now the presence of sulphur is a lot bigger "problem" for single malts than bourbons so. Is this because of the stills or because of the new wood used. I don't know

Fact is that I only had one bourbon which I found sulphured

PS this is not the same kind of sulphur that you can gain from sherry casks, which is a more rubbery sulphur whereas the spirit sulphur is more ashy. HArd to explain the difference but I feel there is one

Steffen

[sutton]

Thanks Steffen - I was thinking about it in terms of the difference between "toast" levels for wine barrels vs. "char" for bourbon barrels. I guess it makes sense that if there are bits of char loose in the barrel you might get even more of a filtering effect - charcoal filtration is very effective at removing compounds but is not highly selective, so you can loose both good and bad elements (at least this is what I remember from my winemaking reading ...)

I was wondering if that alligator char you hear about might also provide more of a smoothing effect like you see in a Tennessee whisky...

[birdman1099]

Thanks for the comments. I've yet to find a bourbon I considered overaged, so I'm feeling a little safer. The more wood I taste, the more I like it. (Please refrain from immature jokes, I just read that last sentence back.)

[jinenjo]

I just got one from http://www.bluegrassbarrels.com to rebarrel some Fleichmann's Rye. Haven't put it to use yet, but can't wait!!

You're using what?????

Yes, it's youthful spirit, but hell, I'll trade you ND Old Taylor or OGD handles for that rare juice!

[timd]

Most probably already know this, but Char & Toast are two very different things... I've had the difference explained - and can't recall the specifics, but "toasting" - I think - is more a result of non-direct, high-heat (for wine, mostly), whereas char is caused by direct flame - causing blistering/charring on the wood (for spirits).

This is pretty broad/general - and I'm sure somebody can clarify.

The only place I found in calling around that knew - or marketed - that difference was Oak Barrels Ltd... and the charred barrels I got from her were VERY different than my previous toasted ones, and stamped "XXX" for being charred vs. toasted.

[tmckenzie]

I will send you a barrel for those ud old crow's.

[Rughi]

...I found an old store that has some UD Old Crow for about $10 a liter so I may try that...

I will send you a barrel for those ud old crow's.

I'm sure it's just a slip, but you both meant National Distillers (ND), not United Distillers (UD).

That said, I wonder if Old Crows from the last few years before the Beam sale need more barrel time so much as a proof infusion. Bottles that I've had often seemed a bit off and soft or even weak, but I'm not so sure it's from youth.

Unfortunately, high proof spirit is always difficult to obtain cheaply, but I wonder if some white dog or even bonded whiskey might not be a great thing to mingle in with that latter day Crow to give it some punch and brightness.

Roger

[Bourbon Boiler]

I have been talking to many barrel makers (for craft wine/beer/whisky/hot sauce purposes) that use the terms char and toast interchangably. When I make the question specific, I usually find that it's really toasted. Some really don't understand the clarification I'm asking for. That is usually a sign for me to move on.

[sailor22]

After some pretty awful failures with small barrels and pieces of charred wood in ball jars filled with Bourbon and tasting some juice from micros aged in small barrels I gave up trying to improve Bourbon with more aging in small barrels.

I got my hands on a full size 53 gallon barrel that originally held BT's Eagle Rare for ten years until my local liquor store picked it as a vanity selection. Still, I knew it made some good juice. Immediately added a few 750's of whatever was laying around to keep it wet. Rolled it around and discovered no leaks. Also noticed the wood soaked up nearly all of the juice.

Some friends and I put a vatting consisting of 30 handles of EW 1783, 2 handles of WT101, 2 handles of WLWSR, 10 750's of Baby Saz and 2 750's of tax strip OC 7yr into the barrel. Oh yeah, we added a fat splash of Jefferson's 17 just so there was some SW in there for good luck. The barrel was about half full when we were done.

It wasn't a bad vatting but didn't really improve on any of the original elements. Now 18 months into the experiment the juice has come together nicely and tastes batter than any one of the elements did originally.

Whatever flavors the barrel may have added are subtle but the disparate original flavors have melded into a complex whole that is more enjoyable than any of the original single elements were. The most noticeable new flavor the barrel added was some char or smoke character.

As it aged my friends and I sampled regularly and very often we were surprised at how much it changed in just a short period of time and not always for the better. It seems to taste better in summer which is a little counter intuitive in that we assumed it would be better when the cold squeezed the juice out of the wood. Also surprising was how much it changed in just a few months between this spring and now.

The barrel we are using had already been busy aging juice for ten years by the time we got it so we didn't expect any of the Vanillas or Caramels that seem to come out of a good barrel first. There has been a lot more evaporation than we anticipated but there is no way to measure exactly. We are going by how heavy it feels, or how much seems to be inside when we roll it around.

The barrel is on the ground floor of a 3 story all wood barn with a concrete floor here in North Florida. We haven't kept a record of ambient temp or anything like that.

[flintlock]

Some friends and I put a vatting consisting of 30 handles of EW 1783, 2 handles of WT101, 2 handles of WLWSR, 10 750's of Baby Saz and 2 750's of tax strip OC 7yr into the barrel. Oh yeah, we added a fat splash of Jefferson's 17 just so there was some SW in there for good luck. The barrel was about half full when we were done.

What an awesome experiment - and to come out with something better than any of its constituent whiskies...that's great. When you pull the plug and bottle it up?

[nblair]

You're using what?????

Yes, it's youthful spirit, but hell, I'll trade you ND Old Taylor or OGD handles for that rare juice!

I just figured it was a prime candidate for a little experiment. Good base juice, little extra (faux) aging wouldn't hurt, good price. PM coming your way.

[Bourbon Boiler]

After some pretty awful failures with small barrels and pieces of charred wood in ball jars filled with Bourbon and tasting some juice from micros aged in small barrels I gave up trying to improve Bourbon with more aging in small barrels.

I got my hands on a full size 53 gallon barrel that originally held BT's Eagle Rare for ten years until my local liquor store picked it as a vanity selection. Still, I knew it made some good juice. Immediately added a few 750's of whatever was laying around to keep it wet. Rolled it around and discovered no leaks. Also noticed the wood soaked up nearly all of the juice.

Sounds like fun. I'm nowhere near ready to try something like this, but is there a consistant way to get your hands on a used barrel this large?

[sailor22]

When you pull the plug and bottle it up?

We have pulled about 5 or 6 750's out so far, maybe more.

It drinks good :grin:

Thinking of doing a solara thing and after pulling more out later this summer adding another big batch of new handles. Experimenting with what to add. We have a source for some barrels that have recently had 3yr rye dumped from them and we might move the new juice to a younger barrel. The trick is getting a barrel that hasn't had time to dry out.

When a group or retailer does a barrel pick they can usually have the barrel delivered along with the juice if they want. After all they bought the barrel and the juice in it. Also, when I was looking a couple years ago you could buy new barrels from the same guys the big boys bought from.

[sutton]

The barrel was about half full when we were done.

Have you thought about topping up the barrel? Just wondering if that might slow some of the evaporation. IIRC, when RH% is higher than 75% more alcohol evaporates than water; lower than 75% and water evaporates more rapidly. Being in N. Florida I wonder if your months above 75% exceed the months below - you might concentrate the flavors and increase the proof by keeping the RH% under 75%....

I've seen this in my winemaking after 18mo-2yrs in barrel - the loss of water intensifies the taste with a slight increase in alcohol content ... which could be a good or bad thing depending on the quality of what went into the barrel in the first place!

Of course, finding 53 gallons of anything is a challenge - great experiment!

[sailor22]

If we find a younger barrel that has had known good juice come from it we will move the remaining whiskey to it and then fill it at least to the 3/4 mark with something that blends well with the taste we have now.

One of my concerns with this project is that since every barrel brings something different to the aging process it is important to use a barrel that is a known good barrel. That's what kept me from getting a new one - it would be a crap shoot.

[Bourbon Boiler]

Where are you buying your barrels to age your whiskey? I'm going to start doing this and I need a good supplier of non-varnished barrels.

[ethangsmith]

(Anxiously awaits results....)

[Bourbon Boiler]

(Anxiously awaits results....)

I'm tempted to start tasting this thing hourly. Patience is not a strength of mine lately.

[timd]

I'm tempted to start tasting this thing hourly. Patience is not a strength of mine lately.

In time, you'll forget about it - it's just 'there' - and if you taste it too early, you'll be convinced that it's not any good... that also helps you have more patience, because it's pretty rough in the early days...

[Bourbon Boiler]

In time, you'll forget about it - it's just 'there' - and if you taste it too early, you'll be convinced that it's not any good... that also helps you have more patience, because it's pretty rough in the early days...

You're probably right. I saved about 3-4 oz of the white dog for comparison as it progresses.

[bgageus]

The barrel is on the ground floor of a 3 story all wood barn with a concrete floor here in North Florida. We haven't kept a record of ambient temp or anything like that.

As if I did not need another reason to head to N. Florida.

[sailor22]

Let me know when your coming and you can sample directly from the barrel. I have lots of open bottles we can work on too:grin:

[Bourbon Boiler]

I got some 2 oz bottles this week so I can record the progress.

[gburger]

Bought three barrels from http://www.thebarrelsource.com/

Good prices and great service. One of my barrels leaked and she replaced it without having to send the bad one back. I put Buffalo Trace White dog in them at the end of May. Looking forward to tasting them.

[Enoch]

If you are going to store it outside - check every few days. During hot months, and with a first-fill (if it's a "medium char" - and not "medium toast") it's going to age f-a-s-t. You are starting with something that's already a few years old - which I've not done, so not sure how it will impact. It may actually be more subtle since you've got a flavor profile from wood already.

With the 100+ degree days here, two weeks took a silver tequila to nearly black... It was a first fill/XXX char 2 liter barrel.

My last experiment (in Michigan, winter...) aged much, much more slowly - but had a heavier tannin/wood profile - far less vanilla/caramel, but I think that's because that barrel was toasted, not charred.

I put white dog (actually it's MBR's "Blackdog" new make) in the same tequila barrel, and I've already got color & a woody-nose 3 days into it...).

Granted - we've broken 100+ every day in Dallas for the past few weeks - AND I add another little trick: bring it in about every 2-3 days, put it in the fridge to get the wood to contract, and then stick it back outside in the morning.

I also suggest that you FREEZE it when you are ready to empty it - this squeezes out all the woody goodness and primes the barrel for the next use (you still have to soak with water, however).

And - if you don't like "stuff" in your final product use cheesecloth or a strainer (any kind of physical barrier) as you empty it - because no matter how much you washed it, there will be big & little flakes of char coming out with it - enough to coat the bottom of the bottle.

Good luck - and keep us in informed on how extra aging an already aged whiskey goes. I think it could wind up being very dark, creamy, smooth and rich tasting in a very short amount of time (3-4 weeks)

Thanks for the advise. I dumped the barrel after just two weeks and the bourbon is nearly black and has a very strong new wood taste almost pine-ish. It's good but has to be cut with water. If I had left it for a couple of months I suspect it would have been undrinkable. It doesn't taste anything like the EW BIB I put in there.