Quintessential Inexpensive Rye

[ErichPryde]

As I mentioned in my intro, I'm not a real vet of bourbon, and a total rye virgin as it were. I know I like bourbon, and will taste many over my remaining days. Do I like Rye? I dunno.

That said, there are some 95%-100% Rye offerings out there (the above are probably "barely legal" - and only around 51%-60% Rye).

My favorite is Rittenhouse BIB. Around here, most bartenders swear by Wild Turkey Rye. By far the best selling rye is Jim Beam Rye.

As others have said, it boils down to:

Wild Turkey Rye

Rittenhouse Rye

Sazerac Rye

Jim Beam Rye

I would immediately toss the 95%ers out the window as "ryes." Why? because they were never meant to be enjoyed straight- they were always flavoring whiskeys. If rye whiskeys that have near the minimum requirement of rye are considered barely legal, and not really ryes, then what do we consider the bourbons that have the minimum requirement of corn? Four roses has a mash that is 60% corn, AH Hirsch sits right at the minimum, and there are plenty of others that use near 60% corn. Very rarely do you hear people talking about how they are barely legal (excepting maybe the AH Hirsch), but often times you hear people refer to them as "high rye."

I think the norm for a rye whiskey probably should be right about 60% rye, 30-35% corn, and 5-10% malted barley (enough to work with). Ryes with approximately those mash perimeters will give you a good idea of what a classic rye is all about. Many of them are probably 51%ers, Certainly The Van Winkles claim that their Family Reserve is.

The 95% and 100% rye whiskeys that have appeared on the market are only here because a market for rye whiskey has come back at all. Rye whiskey is relatively unavailable, as someone pointed out, compared to bourbon. Many distilleries don't do more than one or two days worth of rye distilling per year- And that means that rectifiers like KBD and High West will have to purchase their ryes from somewhere other than the big boys- they don't have enough rye as it is! Means that the huge (but dwindling) stocks at LDI have a big share of the market right now. Buillet, Jeffersons, and many others come from this stock. Dave from High West has done a much better job, in my opinion, by mixing ryes from different sources, or even with bourbons, to get things closer in mash to a "true rye." As an ingredient, Whistlepig is an excellent rye, but I'm not such a fan of it neat. how many of you enjoy corn whiskey to the point that you'd have it every day? Some might.

Now all of that being said- I don't despise the 95%ers, I just feel they need to be thought of as somewhat different. They aren't straight ryes so much as full ryes, or something else. Everyone here might think a bourbon at 95% corn a bit odd, I feel those ryes should be likewise thought of as somewhat different.

Of the ryes listed:

Sazerac is relatively thin, and too dry, for my liking. I've tried it at 6, 7 from a single barrel, and NAS. the single barrel offering was better, but not by enough that it's something I'd want to spend 30 bucks on... which is unfortunately what it runs.

Wild Turkey Rye is a good one to start with. To me it has a very distinct spice, or heat, that I have to be in the right mood for.

Rittenhouse is an easy to pour and drink whiskey. Yes, it's more bourbon-like than WTR101 or Saz, but it's also a better made whiskey (currently). It's a very good example of how good a rye can be.

Jim Beam rye is a solid example of rye, but the conditioner here is that you like Beam's very unique yeast profile. If you can't stomach that, steer clear. I'll tell you that if nothing else, it's great in Barq's rootbeer for a quick cocktail.

[timd]

Means that the huge (but dwindling) stocks at LDI have a big share of the market right now. Buillet, Jeffersons, and many others come from this stock.

Jefferson's, Whistlepig, and another I'm drawing a blank on all come from the same place... They are Canadian, not LDI.

Not sure I agree with your logic - as Bourbon is *intended* to be an amalgamation of the various grains - specifically a blend of the various influences be they wheat, barley or rye - with a corn backbone.

Corn, Wheat & Rye whiskeys are all meant to showcase those specific grain's flavors and benefits. Corn, being the exception and requiring a higher percentage of corn to the mix, and also not using charred oak, but new - or no - oak, in order to prevent it from being confused with bourbon.

I don't discount the 95%ers at all from this lineup - they are an integral part of the rye spectrum - just as wheat, corn & rye based bourbon covers a broad spectrum. 51%-100% is what Rye covers. And the LDI, Van Winkle, Vintage 21, Sazeracs, Whistlepig/Jefferson, Old Potrero, and other "oddballs" have as much a place as JB, WT, Baby Saz & Ritt.

You wouldn't leave wheaters out of an overview/quintessential discussion about Bourbon, right?

[STLbourbon]

I just found a bottle of Rittenhouse BIB for about $19. I gave away my last bottle as it just had some weird flavors I wasn't liking, like pickles or something off-putting. But I had to try again, and this new bottle has none of that. This is a killer sipping whiskey, a great rye.

STLb

[ErichPryde]

Who said rye can't be about an amalgamation of grains? The rye whiskey from 50 or 100 years ago was not 95% rye. And apologies- I didn't realize that jeffersons was also canadian. Thanks for the info.

the rittenhouse of the last 2 years seems you be much better than it was.

[timd]

like pickles or something off-putting.

STLb

Funny - I get a "dill flavor" from many rye-heavy whiskies that very few others seems to experience - may be some genetic thing with taste buds?

Anyhow, I don't find it off-putting in most cases, just part of the flavor profile that appears to me from time to time (I find it far more often in Rye heavy bourbon, vs. straight rye)

[Brisko]

Funny - I get a "dill flavor" from many rye-heavy whiskies that very few others seems to experience - may be some genetic thing with taste buds?

Anyhow, I don't find it off-putting in most cases, just part of the flavor profile that appears to me from time to time (I find it far more often in Rye heavy bourbon, vs. straight rye)

I get it occasionally, too, but not always. Off the top of my head, I think I get pickles from Saz 18, Baby Saz, WT Rye and occasionally WT 101 bourbon. Maybe Beam rye, too, I can't remember.

Speaking of Beam, I don't mind their rye. I like it a lot more than either the white or black label bourbons. I think the Beam yeast actually works a lot better with their rye than their bourbon, for what it's worth.

[CADMixes]

I get that flavor big time in Rendezvous Rye.

[White Dog]

So Zanaspus, what Ryes have now you purchased and tried? Thoughts? Are you a fan?

[cowdery]

I understand that popularity and quality are two different things but if someone is interested in rye whiskey, they might find it instructive to try what most people mean when they think of rye whiskey. If you're discovering something new, a good baseline is always the product of that type that dominates the marketplace. How will you know Rit BIB is better if you don't compare it to something?

Plus being reminded that popularity is not the same as quality is tiresome. As insights go, it's not very impressive.

[StraightBoston]

30+ replies and nobody has mentioned Old Overholt yet?

I like the phrasing of the original question:

Which rye do you taste and say, "if a person tries and likes this, he's hooked for life on rye whiskey, and if he doesn't like it, he really doesn't like rye."

Ritt BIB is my favorite, too, but precisely for its more bourbon-ish and less rye-like qualities -- I don't think it answers the question. WT Rye and JB yellow label (or OO) would be my recommendations (kind of like the Scotch question should split into peated vs. unpeated to really cover all tastes.)

[Zanaspus]

So Zanaspus, what Ryes have now you purchased and tried? Thoughts? Are you a fan?

Thinking I'll make it to the liquor store Thursday. I'll quaff then and give impressions.

[White Dog]

I understand that popularity and quality are two different things but if someone is interested in rye whiskey, they might find it instructive to try what most people mean when they think of rye whiskey. If you're discovering something new, a good baseline is always the product of that type that dominates the marketplace. How will you know Rit BIB is better if you don't compare it to something?

Plus being reminded that popularity is not the same as quality is tiresome. As insights go, it's not very impressive.

[Shell]

I'd say Sazerac (Saz Jr or Baby Saz around these parts) if you can find it. It isn't my favorite but it is pretty representative of the style. It would be a good starting point, anyway. Otherwise Rittenhouse Bottled in Bond (again, if you can find it). ...

I'm sure some would suggest Wild Turkey Rye, and I think you should definitely try it at some point, but it seems to be kind of polarizing.

[ErichPryde]

You wouldn't leave wheaters out of an overview/quintessential discussion about Bourbon, right?

timd, sorry for the brief response earlier. No, I wouldn't leave the wheaters out, they are very much bourbon. I agree that the 95%ers are a form of rye whiskey, the point I was trying to make is that they are somewhat non-standard for the profile. Agreed, however, that at least one of the less expensive ones (say Bulliet) be thrown in the mix so a newbie might have a good idea of what those taste like.

My two favorite ryes that are still possible to find are Thomas Handy (most specifically 2008) and the more recent party source 10 year old saz barrel proof offer. The rye is absolutely there, but the corn and barley compliment it. I like the combination of grains, but you're right- that is a personal preference.

My favorite unavailable ryes are Hirsch Rye, and Dougdog's Rye. Hirsch Rye was from the same source as some of the earlier van winkle rye, and the hirsch stuff- now that was absolutely, totally mind-numbing rye whiskey. I know nothing about Dougdog's Rye as far as mashbill is concerned, but it's very good stuff.

That being said, I also very much like some of the "fuller rye" offerings that have been thrown out there. for example, Highwest 16 (80% rye) and 12 (unsure on the percentage or source) are both absolutely stunning whiskeys. Their 21 (53%) is also very, very good and interesting stuff.

All of this being said, in a completely blind taste test of several different rye whiskeys, I scored Rittenouse BIB a point higher than 4 or 5 other higher (significantly, in a few cases) priced whiskeys. Apparently I like it that much.

I understand that popularity and quality are two different things but if someone is interested in rye whiskey, they might find it instructive to try what most people mean when they think of rye whiskey. If you're discovering something new, a good baseline is always the product of that type that dominates the marketplace. How will you know Rit BIB is better if you don't compare it to something?

Agreed.

30+ replies and nobody has mentioned Old Overholt yet?

I like the phrasing of the original question:

Which rye do you taste and say, "if a person tries and likes this, he's hooked for life on rye whiskey, and if he doesn't like it, he really doesn't like rye."

Ritt BIB is my favorite, too, but precisely for its more bourbon-ish and less rye-like qualities -- I don't think it answers the question. WT Rye and JB yellow label (or OO) would be my recommendations (kind of like the Scotch question should split into peated vs. unpeated to really cover all tastes.)

I agree that Old Overholt should be thrown into the mix, but I don't feel that it should be the qualifier that determines whether or not one likes ryes. I love Ritt, Handy, some of the ORVWRRs, but I don't particularly care for OO. Likewise, I don't really care for Highland Park, yet I really, really like Laphroiag (QC and 18yr) and Glenlivet (Nadurra, 15 & 18 yr)

It only dominates the market because it's made and marketed by the mighty Beam, who uses that influence to force distribution on lazy retail and restaurant buyers who just want the cheapest and easiest path.

I would say that both Beam Rye and OO barely taste like anything, much less the "baseline Rye," which is why this gentleman should buy WT and Baby Saz. But I agree that one should try Beam and OO Rye, so order it at any number of restaurants off their rail.

I disagree. If there was no demand, supply would start to dwindle. A lot of it does have to do with advertising, but Beam is cheap and it's not bad bourbon from the perspective of someone eyeballing Jack, WT, Beam, and EW. It's got more character than EW, it's less expensive than WT and Jack. Why not? Jim Beam is an American whiskey, made for the American Worker. Just like Marlboros. As long as there is demand, there will be supply. And with many people, they simply don't want to try something new and more expensive.

I have, on many occasions, drank JBW neat. I foresee myself doing so many more times. It's not the worst bourbon ever made by a longshot.

[cowdery]

It only dominates the market because it's made and marketed by the mighty Beam, who uses that influence to force distribution on lazy retail and restaurant buyers who just want the cheapest and easiest path.

I don't agree with that demeaning and insulting view of either American whiskey drinkers or retailers. Overholt, Beam, Turkey and Rittenhouse (Heaven Hill) kept rye alive when it virtually went extinct. They continued to supply rye drinkers and rye drinkers, despite their shrinking numbers, continued to buy those brands, which had enough patronage to survive. Just because I like something different than what somebody else likes doesn't automatically mean they are mindless sheep who are brainwashed into buying a substandard product, as you and many others seem to believe. Give people a little more credit. Why does liking something you don't have to make them idiots?

[ErichPryde]

I don't agree with that demeaning and insulting view of either American whiskey drinkers or retailers. Overholt, Beam, Turkey and Rittenhouse (Heaven Hill) kept rye alive when it virtually went extinct. They continued to supply rye drinkers and rye drinkers, despite their shrinking numbers, continued to buy those brands, which had enough patronage to survive. Just because I like something different than what somebody else likes doesn't automatically mean they are mindless sheep who are brainwashed into buying a substandard product, as you and many others seem to believe. Give people a little more credit. Why does liking something you don't have to make them idiots?

Shoot, what ryes were even readily available in most places even 7 years ago? I was barely old enough to drink whiskey then, and wasn't paying attention. For the rye drinker like me, right now is awesome. Tomorrow is looking better. I can afford to be picky enough to say that I don't like most of the 6+ 95%ers out there. I can be picky enough to say I don't prefer OO. But readily available ryes pre 2002? In the mid 90's?

[White Dog]

I don't agree with that demeaning and insulting view of either American whiskey drinkers or retailers. Overholt, Beam, Turkey and Rittenhouse (Heaven Hill) kept rye alive when it virtually went extinct. They continued to supply rye drinkers and rye drinkers, despite their shrinking numbers, continued to buy those brands, which had enough patronage to survive. Just because I like something different than what somebody else likes doesn't automatically mean they are mindless sheep who are brainwashed into buying a substandard product, as you and many others seem to believe. Give people a little more credit. Why does liking something you don't have to make them idiots?

First of all, I should have been more specific in my post. Due to my job in wine wholesale, I was referring to professional restaurant/retail buyers who decide on which placements to make. Those people are the lazy ones. I was not referring to the public who buys these products. And there are many dynamic people in these decision maker roles, but the majority are not. Let me add that I am often forced to order Beam products, as those are all that most restaurants carry in my state. So I am one of those idiots who drink Beam Rye on-premise.

And they are not sheep for drinking Beam Rye, but rather the problem is that the industry does not give them better options. Who on this forum would prefer Beam Rye to Pikesville or Ritt? But unfortunately, Heaven Hill is number 2, to Beam's number 1.

Also, I never once called anyone an idiot. You used that term.

Also, I have praised Turkey Rye and Ritt plenty of times on this forum.

The other problem is no other company came in to really supply the bottom-shelf Rye market, except for Beam. That may be the case, but it is lamentable.

Some people on this site are big apologists for Beam. I am not one.

[timd]

The other problem is no other company came in to really supply the bottom-shelf Rye market, except for Beam. That may be the case, but it is lamentable.

I agree with White Dog - he makes the best point - it's a "bottom shelf" Rye. It's like arguing about why we don't sing the praises of or steer people to $12/liter bourbon.

Rye is a slightly premium group given the above $15 entry point (at least where I am) - but among the Rye choices, Beam is priced (and tastes like) the bottom shelf.

It's easily $4-5 less than any other competitor (20%-25% less) which, lets face it, in this economy is a difference maker. Beam prices & positions their Rye (and some of their other products) at the bottom of the tier, and expects it to be consumed by folks with a "bottom shelf" mindset. That doesn't mean they don't have premium/super-premium products, because as we all know they do... but JB Rye isn't one of them.

If I wanted to steer someone to the best experience, JB Rye won't be on the list.

We don't get flack for dogging on Jack Daniels or Crown Royal (category/market leaders). Why the grousing over dogging on JB Rye or Old Overcoat? They simply aren't very good.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who enjoy it as a mixer - and I'd bet that the vast majority of the JB Rye sales go to bars/restaurant by significant margin - than are sold off the shelf. But if you need a rye for making drinks, and you aren't discriminating, you'll buy the cheapest one - and JB Rye wins that battle hands-down. That's where the sales come from - not from people trying to have a "good rye experience." Nothing wrong with that, either - I buy generic Kahlua, Baileys, Midori, etc. all the time - because I can't tell the difference, and don't care because I'm mixing them - and primarily because they are MUCH cheaper.

That's the niche JB Rye fills... not for the person searching for the quintessential inexpensive Rye!

[ErichPryde]

I agree with White Dog - he makes the best point - it's a "bottom shelf" Rye. It's like arguing about why we don't sing the praises of or steer people to $12/liter bourbon....

...We don't get flack for dogging on Jack Daniels or Crown Royal (category/market leaders). Why the grousing over dogging on JB Rye or Old Overcoat? They simply aren't very good....

...That's the niche JB Rye fills... not for the person searching for the quintessential inexpensive Rye!

Let me throw myself under the bus for a moment. Excluding Jim Beam Rye would be like me excluding all of the 95%+ers.

No, Jim Beam isn't a glorious whiskey... But it's okay, readily available, and really inexpensive. As an example of the whiskey craft, it's probably better than their white label. As Chuck pointed out, it maintained the rye market when only a select few were drinking rye.

Jim Beam rye was the first rye I tried, followed by RRR90. And you know? I actually knew that I liked rye when I tried the beam- even though it isn't the best.

The major problem with Beam rye is that its a bit thin. And that isn't really a problem to the inexperienced drinker.

I think Jim Beam gets flack for the same reason that JD and CR do. The same reason that I have given maker's so much crap in the past.

[AaronWF]

If someone is curious about whiskey, it's easy to walk into a liquor store and buy a bottle. Anywhere in the country, and just about anywhere in the world where American whiskey is sold, the rye on the shelf will be Beam Rye. Nobody needs to come here and be steered to the ubiquitous bottom-shelvers; that is something Beam and Co. are pros at doing themselves. People come here to learn about how to go about finding the good buys they've never heard of. Anyone can spend $10 for the juice in the plastic bottle, but places like this forum can help someone find the step up in quality for the step up in price in the $20 range and beyond.

[dohidied]

Jim Beam rye was the first rye I tried. And you know? I actually knew that I liked rye when I tried the beam- even though it isn't the best.

[ErichPryde]

If someone is curious about whiskey, it's easy to walk into a liquor store and buy a bottle. Anywhere in the country, and just about anywhere in the world where American whiskey is sold, the rye on the shelf will be Beam Rye. Nobody needs to come here and be steered to the ubiquitous bottom-shelvers; that is something Beam and Co. are pros at doing themselves. People come here to learn about how to go about finding the good buys they've never heard of. Anyone can spend $10 for the juice in the plastic bottle, but places like this forum can help someone find the step up in quality for the step up in price in the $20 range and beyond.

[smokinjoe]

Quality is a relative thing, and it isn't necessarily a function of cost. The entire point is that just because we're all whiskey snobs with a bunch of better recommendations, it doesn't mean anyone should discount the bottom shelf if they haven't tried the ""plastic"" bottles down there. Additionally, Rye drinkers owe some thanks to beam.

[White Dog]

Agreed, Erik. I've been totally enjoying an 80 proof, sub-$20, PET plastic, 1.75 liter, bottle of Fleischmann's Rye over the last few weeks. All of that neither sounds, nor looks good, but is wonderful whiskey, and I'd pay triple...

[ErichPryde]

Agreed, Erik. I've been totally enjoying an 80 proof, sub-$20, PET plastic, 1.75 liter, bottle of Fleischmann's Rye over the last few weeks. All of that neither sounds, nor looks good, but is wonderful whiskey, and I'd pay triple...