Barrels and wood

[ebo]

I've been wondering for some time; why are barrels always made from Oak?

Why is it always White Oak, and not Red Oak, Black Oak, Pin Oak, Bur Oak or..............?

Why is no other wood used for making barrels, like Walnut, Ash, Hickory or Cherry?

[wmpevans]

The resident historians can add to this, but the main reason would be that bourbon, by legal definition, has to be aged in charred OAK barrels.

[soad]

All other production variables being equal, i do wonder what whiskey would taste like from new hickory barrels....

....or maybe they do, I really don't know how they make that funny tasting Scotch....:grin:

[Phil T]

The resident historians can add to this, but the main reason would be that bourbon, by legal definition, has to be aged in charred OAK barrels.

I'm thinking ebo understands this..he's questioning "why only oak?"

[StraightNoChaser]

white oak is the time tested material. from what I remember in my wine days, it has to do with its flavor profile and the quality of the wood grain being most suitable for holding liquids. also, from wikipedia

Throughout history other wood types, including chestnut, pine, redwood, and acacia, have been used in crafting winemaking vessels, particularly large fermentation vats. However none of these wood types possess the compatibility with wine that oak has demonstrated in combining its water tight, yet slightly porous, storage capabilities with the unique flavor and texture characteristic that it can impart to the wine that it is in contact with.[22] Chestnut is very high in tannins and is too porous as a storage barrel and must be coated with paraffin to prevent excessive wine loss through evaporation. Redwood is too rigid to bend into the smaller barrel shapes and imparts an unpleasant flavor. Acacia imparts a yellow tint to the wine. Other hardwoods like apple and cherry wood have an off putting smell.[23] Austrian winemakers have a history of using Acacia barrels. Historically, chestnut was used by Beaujolais, Italian and Portuguese wine makers.[24] Some Rhône winemakers still use paraffin coated chestnut barrels but the coating minimizes any effect from the wood making its function similar to a neutral concrete vessel. In Chile there are traditions for using barrel made of rauli wood but it is beginning to fall out of favor due to the musky scent it imparts on wine.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_(wine)#Other_wood_types

[ebo]

I'm thinking ebo understands this..he's questioning "why only oak?"

Exactly. I understand the law about bourbon, but I always wondered why other wood is never used outside of bourbon or any other spirit, really.

[grubbster]

White oak is physically unique as compared to other woods in its cellular structure. If I remember correctly from my college woods classes white oak has occlusions inside its cellular structure that makes the wood not porous length wise while remaining porous laterally. Red oaks do not have these occlusions. During barrel fabrication these wood cells are opened which allows the liquid to enter the cells. Because of the cellular occlusions the liquid does not soak through the entire barrel. I have been told you can take two pieces of oak in a thin stick, one red and one white, and if you hold one end under water and blow on the other end, you can make bubbles with the red oak stick but not the white.

[Bourbon Boiler]

Maybe it is the cynic in me, but I always assumed Congressional power from those in oak producing states was a factor as well.

[BFerguson]

In terms of red vs white oak, red oak lacks tyloses, which to put it simply, it stuff that clogs up the pore of the wood, and thus renders it relatively water tight.

If you took a small "straw" of both red and white oak, and put one end in water and then blew through the other, you would get bubbles with the red and nothing with the white.

Thus the historical preference for white versus other wood types for this water tightness effectiveness.

I remember seeing a photo of the maple barrels that Woodford did, and they were leaking like a sieve. See Chuck's blog for a pic.

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2010/09/do-maple-barrels-look-different.html

Flavor is a big factor too. Having worked with both white and red oak, white just smells a lot nicer when cutting it, red often just plain reeks. That is pretty simple to translate in how it would taste.

B

[soad]

Maybe it is the cynic in me.....

"The west slopes of the Appalachian Mountains and the Ohio and central Mississippi River Valleys have optimum conditions for white oak"

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/quercus/alba.htm

Sounds like a certain whiskey producing state is also a good place to grow the barrels. Back in the early days, that would have been important.

[ebo]

White oak is physically unique as compared to other woods in its cellular structure. If I remember correctly from my college woods classes white oak has occlusions inside its cellular structure that makes the wood not porous length wise while remaining porous laterally. Red oaks do not have these occlusions. During barrel fabrication these wood cells are opened which allows the liquid to enter the cells. Because of the cellular occlusions the liquid does not soak through the entire barrel. I have been told you can take two pieces of oak in a thin stick, one red and one white, and if you hold one end under water and blow on the other end, you can make bubbles with the red oak stick but not the white.

Those occlusions are also why white oak has such large ray patterns in the end grain. They show up very well when the logs are rift sawn. I wasn't aware they made the wood non porous lengthwise. Thanks for the information.

[tmckenzie]

100 percent pin oak barrels are indeed made. I have quite a few. It is a white oak and a lots of times pin oak will come in to a cooperage and it is mixed in with the rest. But 1 certain cooperage pulls them out when they scale the logs and makes barrels out of just pin oak. I like what I am seeing from them. They have a spicier smell to them, and I am hoping the whiskey will pick that up.

[Old Lamplighter]

Another possible factor: I recall from something I read a few years ago that white oak has historically very plentiful in North America. Now, whether it still is, I don't know.

What I do know is that I have plenty of it right now for my fireplace. Last spring, two (2) 120-150 foot specimens fell into my yard from a neighbor's yard barely missing my house twice. I did lose an old car though...so it was not really free...lol :shithappens:

[cowdery]

Everybody go back and read grubbster again. He is exactly right. A nice bonus about those unique occlusions; that's where the vanilla is.

White Oak is plentiful and has a large growing area. It wasn't long after the invention of iron tools sturdy enough to work oak that oak began to be used for all kinds of vessels because it doesn't leak. By a very happy coincidence, it also contain tasty stuff that makes liquids stored in it taste better.

By the way, the law regarding whiskey requires white oak, but it doesn't have to be American white oak.

People do experiment with other woods. Brown-Forman has been experimenting with maple, for example. It's harder to make it leak proof but barrel making is so advanced these days that it is possible. The wood also imparts flavors that are different from the flavors oak imparts.

I don't think anything will ever supplant white oak, but there will always be people experimenting.

[Bourbon Boiler]

So if someone (perhaps a micro) wanted to experiment with other woods, would they be better off using a white oak barrel with a light char and simply add chips from the other wood? That way they could avoid leaking problems, but still get the flavors from other woods.

[ebo]

So if someone (perhaps a micro) wanted to experiment with other woods, would they be better off using a white oak barrel with a light char and simply add chips from the other wood? That way they could avoid leaking problems, but still get the flavors from other woods.

Sounds like something that should be explored.

Walnut is another wood that has quite a bit of tanic acid in it. I wonder what it would do for flavor?

[grubbster]

So if someone (perhaps a micro) wanted to experiment with other woods, would they be better off using a white oak barrel with a light char and simply add chips from the other wood? That way they could avoid leaking problems, but still get the flavors from other woods.

[smokinjoe]

I'm sure this, like so many other "discoveries" in our world, are not so much the fruits of planned scientific work; rather it's the result of a lot of plain 'ol dumb luck. I find that all fascinating...

[Enoch]

When barrels were first being used to transport bourbon, white oak was cheap and plentiful. I don't think they originally thought about the flavoring potential. It seems that was discovered by accident.

I did an experiment awhile back using about 100 test tubes (left over from my chemistry teaching days) and a bunch of 1 cl cubes of various woods (hickories, oaks, walnuts, etc.) and various chars I obtained from Bel-Mar. Using several bottles of Trybox, I aged them 1,2,3, and 4 weeks and also 2 and 3 months and varied the cube/volume ratio. I will say that on the whole, most were quite nasty. Some left a taste in my mouth that almost ruined whiskey for me. : )

I suspect the wine and beer and whiskey industries have experimented with various woods and white oak produces the best whiskey. (I do like the flavor that Maker's 46 achieves with French oak.) Just my thoughts.

[sailor22]

I did an experiment awhile back using about 100 test tubes (left over from my chemistry teaching days) and a bunch of 1 cl cubes of various woods (hickories, oaks, walnuts, etc.) and various chars I obtained from Bel-Mar. Using several bottles of Trybox, I aged them 1,2,3, and 4 weeks and also 2 and 3 months and varied the cube/volume ratio. I will say that on the whole, most were quite nasty. Some left a taste in my mouth that almost ruined whiskey for me. : )

I did the same experiment using small Ball Jars and pieces of various charred and uncharred wood. Some fresh cut but most were well seasoned before charing or placing in the jar. I used an inexpensive Bourbon as I didn't have access to enough white dog.

I had high hopes for the Cherry, Maple and Hickory. Was just curious about the Red Oak, Sweetgum, Choke Cherry, Live Oak, Water Oak, Walnut, Mesquite and Pecan.

Unfortunately I got the same results as Enoch.

[JeffRenner]

the law regarding whiskey requires white oak, but it doesn't have to be American white oak.

It doesn't even have to be white oak, only oak, although for the reasons discussed here, that is what is used.

"(1) (i) "Bourbon whisky", "rye whisky", "wheat whisky", "malt whisky", or "rye malt whisky" is whisky produced at not exceeding 160 deg. proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125 deg. proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type."

[JeffRenner]

Maybe it is the cynic in me, but I always assumed Congressional power from those in oak producing states was a factor as well.

At the 2003 National Homebrewers Conference in Chicago, Michael Jackson was a featured speaker. Since he and I sat on the AHA board at the time, he came to a whiskey tasting I hosted in my room, where I opened a 1917 distilled, 1933 bottled Old Overholt BiB rye.

We were discussing oak contributions to flavor and he said that he believed that the requirement for new oak was enshrined in the government regulations by a powerful Arkansas politician rather late, that is, some time after prohibition ended. When I suggested that it was perhaps U.S. Representative Wilbur Mills, he thought that name seemed familiar.

This might be an interesting area for research by someone interested in the history of American straight whiskey.

[JeffRenner]

100 percent pin oak barrels are indeed made. I have quite a few. It is a white oak and a lots of times pin oak will come in to a cooperage and it is mixed in with the rest.

Pin oak, Quercus palustris, and northern pin oak, Quercus ellipsoidalis, are actually in the red oak group of Quercus, so I wonder if that is really the species you are seeing, since red oaks are apparently unsuited for barrels, as discussed in this thread.

Oaks in the red oak group typically have leaves with pointed lobes, while the white oaks have rounded lobes. The sharp lobes of the pin oak leaf end in a short bristle or "pin," hence the name. There is a list of all of the species of Quercus divided into the several groups here.

There are many oaks in the white oak group harvested in North America besides Quercus alba, and they are often sold together as mixed white oak for lumber. I don't know if these others get mixed with Q. alba in for oak destined for cooperage, or if they differ in quality from one another when used in barrels.

[ebo]

I am a Cabinetmaker by trade. I have used a lot of red and white oak in my days. I do know that any species of oak that is NOT white oak are all lumped together and sold with the generic "red oak" tag.

[sailor22]

I am a Cabinetmaker by trade. I have used a lot of red and white oak in my days. I do know that any species of oak that is NOT white oak are all lumped together and sold with the generic "red oak" tag.

Curious if you can detect distinct smells from the different oak's when they are heated by a saw blade? Is the white oak a sweeter smell?