BOTM 3/12: Old Rip Van Winkle 10yr 90 proof

[fishnbowljoe]

It's that time again. :skep: Yes folks, another chapter in the saga of "BOURBON OF THE MONTH' :grin:

Let's here your thoughts on ORVW 10/90. I will refrain from commenting on this BOTM at this time. It's been a while since I had the pleasure of a bottle of it, and my memory ain't quite what it used to be. CRS Baby!

Have fun. Cheers! Joe

[Neat]

i haven't had it in a while either - i always opt to buy the 107 proof.

my main comment about this and the other pappy products: scarcity and the fall/spring pappy chase is wearing very thin. i'm happy i got a few bottles of the various pappy's when they weren't as popular. and oh yeah, still SW. :grin:

[mosugoji64]

I only have bottles of 107 as well (which I think is fantastic btw) but a friend of mine picked up a bottle of the latest release 90 and was supremely disappointed. I didn't try it, but I don't really understand why the 90/107 split. Just make it all 107 and have more available. I think anyone seeking out Van Winkle is probably looking for the higher proof version anyway. Does anyone know the logic behind offering 2 proofs?

[Restaurant man]

The whiskey is delicious to me. Much like weller 12. The price is more due to the "scarcity". It's a shame they can't find more worthy barrels. Of course I do prefer the 107 and hopefully we will be seeing more 107 when the ninety gets dropped this year.

[2highcal]

I have only done the 107 also and that not for a few months just got lucky and got one bottle last year.

[fishnbowljoe]

I picked ORVW 10/90 as BOTM for two reasons.

#1. It hadn't been BOTM before.

#2. It was the first "Pappy" I was able to find. :grin:

Long story, but it really got my attention way back in 08. Since then, like many others, the 10/107 has appealed more to me. Of course, that's not taking into consideration, Pappy 15, Pappy 20, and Pappy 23. What can I say? I do the best I can.

[weller_tex]

Just finished my last drop (sob, sob) of ORVW 10/90 last night. My wife tried to get me PVW 15 for Christmas and was unsuccessful but was able to get the ORVW for me. I am a big Weller fan, especially Weller 12 and OWA. I must say for $36 the ORVW 10/90 is a good deal, too bad it is so dang hard to get.

As much as I like Weller 12, the ORVW 10/90 is superior. It has a creamy sweetness about it with very little "hotness". The Weller 12 can be a little hot. The sweetness in ORVW 10/90 is a maple syrup like sweetness that is different from the brown sugar sweetness in the Weller 12/OWA.

I'd buy the ORVW 10/90 regularly if I could.

[LikeItWasSodaPop]

For me, the biggest difficulty this board has caused me is the death of the value pour. If I've got an amazing bottle (or 5) open, it's really, really hard for me to go for something less. I guess that's just my personality. I want the best, always. I got the best in a lot of ways: my fiancee, my friends, my music, my food ... and yeah, my bourbon.

I've been looking for a while for something that doesn't seem second best. I rely on the board favorite value pours for that (Ritt BIB, various Wellers, VOB BIB) but even these usually leave me wanting more. I'm a snob, I'm an elitist. It's all y'all's fault (when it comes to bourbon)!

I have found a lot of ORVW 10/90 on the shelves. A shit ton of it. And where I've found it, I've found a lot of 10/107. Again, a shit ton, but a shit ton that's now in my basement. As I've gone back slowly to collect all the 10/107's, I've slowly started to collect the 10/90s. In most places, it's less than $30. And as I've gathered up more 10/90s, I've come to really enjoy it, especially bottles from 08 or prior.

It's become my daily "value" pour. I'm a snob, I already admitted it, so don't look at me that way for calling a $30 bottle my "value" pour, OK? I work hard for my money. You can barely find a "value" scotch for anything near that. OK, oops, referencing the snobby "dark side" isn't helping me much.

In any event, when I find ORVW 10/90, I now no longer look at it with disappointment that it's not the 10/107. There's no benefit in that worldview, because in that sense, finding 10/107 would only make you feel sad that it's not the PVW 15, etc.

The 90 is freakin' awesome. Creamy, "smooth" (god, I hate that descriptor), a bit of cherries, a bit of tingle on the finish. Of course it would be better at 107 proof. But I'll tell ya, if I see it, I'm scooping up all of it.

[Bmac]

My dilemma is two-fold

1) I can't find any ORVW product. Ever. Even when you put your name on the list, the store managers only really want to get the PVW line and only ever receive 1 bottle each of ORVW.

2) I got BT's version of VWFR 12yr Lot B. It barely had an edge over W.L. Weller 12yr. This makes me think the 10yr expressions won't be any better than standard W.L. Weller 12 yr that I can find is MASSIVE abundance all over Dallas, at any time of the year for 1/3 the price.

When i really think about it, BT can't afford to have the Weller line out-perform the Van Winkle line being that it's practically the same product.

The Van Winkle stuff is probably small batch so they can concentrate on a particular flavor profile.

With all that said, I wish I could have a taste of ORVW 10/90 BT or SW juice. Anyone know a bar in Dallas that might serve it?

[LikeItWasSodaPop]

I'm too tired to actually debate it, and I guess debating is really irrelevant when it comes to individual tastes, but the ORVW = almost Weller (ORVW 10/90 = Weller SR, ORVW 10/107 = Weller Antique) and Lot B = Weller 12 arguments just fall totally flat in my experience.

The Van Winkle products kick the tail of the Weller products to the curb, and I've tasted various vintages against each other -- blind -- and guess what, the ORVW always wins. And the Lot B always wins over Weller 12, even the fabled Binny's Weller 12 (Burnheim 13.5 year).

What's weird about ORVW to me is that I think there's a large amount of variability in terms of flavor profile -- newer ORVW 10 is sweeter than prior batches. But I think ORVW knocks its companion Wellers (when comparing proof) out of the water. Maybe I just have a bunch of good botles?

But I'd also say that the changes in flavor profile are largely related to this being such a small scale product. If, say, Weller "?"/107* or Weller "?"/90* were to drift slightly more sweet or slightly more dry, you'd probably get 3-4 bottles before you'd really notice the change. The blending of barrels would probably account for the flavor differences, and the high volume would mean you wouldn't experience a jarring change in flavor profile.

Yet with all VW products, they're released, at most, 2x yearly, so you're just bound to find a substantial change when you compare releases.

OK, also, don't get me started on Lot B being no better than Weller 12. Hypocrite alert: I'm on record here for saying the exact same thing, but I hereby rescind that statement.

Of course, there is the question of provenance. Julian just told me via email that current Lot B is Burnheim, which makes the whole Weller 12 is the same as Lot B argument totally bunk. Don't believe me? All I can do is forward the damn email, so PM if you're dubious.

But Julian saying that does make me think that what's ACTUALLY in ORVW isn't as simple as you think, especially if you go back to some of the dusty bottles I've found.

Of course, what I wish is that Julian would just tell us when each expression changed from SW to Burnheim to BT and how we can tell. I doubt this will happen, but I think he should consider it only because it would help him show enthusiasts that the true core value of the brand is barrel selection, not mythical "closed amazing distillery" mojo.

The fact is, Julian picks some freakin' awesome barrels. So: credit where due. And, I think: the more we know about what it is he does, the higher his star (and that of his company) will rise.

BTW, and I think I'm gonna "blog" on this: why don't we harness the collective power we have in terms of how we discuss various bourbons in order to make a political statement against NAS whiskeys? Why not put a question mark to designate age because it is, really, totally unknown. Putting the question mark in there is a way for us enthusiasts to say that we don't like age statement downgrades and we don't like NAS in general. Doesn't putting the ? and scare quotes around the age statement for Weller -- hey, we should be talking about age when comparing it with ORVW, because it is age stated, right? -- make it look bad? When I say I'm comparing Weller "?"/107 with ORVW 10/107, do you not get a sense of scorn? Maybe it won't make a difference but, hey, you never know. Anyway, I'll be doing so from henceforth.

[dean_martin]

I think I might participate this month! I have a bottle each of 10/90 and 10/107 that I picked up around the time I joined SB. Judging from the time i bought them, my guess is they're from the Fall '08 release, but I'll look for date codes. I know - what am I waiting for?

[Bmac]

OK, also, don't get me started on Lot B being no better than Weller 12. Hypocrite alert: I'm on record here for saying the exact same thing, but I hereby rescind that statement.

but...but...we want you to get started (well, ok...*I* do...can't speak for everyone). how else are we to learn if we don't discuss it?

Julian just told me via email that current Lot B is Burnheim, which makes the whole Weller 12 is the same as Lot B argument totally bunk. Don't believe me? All I can do is forward the damn email, so PM if you're dubious.

Woe. I would say that is big news. I didn't know that Van Winkle was sourcing Bernhiem Wheat. Doesn't Heaven Hill own Bernheim distilleries and it's barrels?

The fact is, Julian picks some freakin' awesome barrels. So: credit where due. And, I think: the more we know about what it is he does, the higher his star (and that of his company) will rise.

Can't argue there.

BTW, and I think I'm gonna "blog" on this: why don't we harness the collective power we have in terms of how we discuss various bourbons in order to make a political statement against NAS whiskeys? Why not put a question mark to designate age because it is, really, totally unknown. Putting the question mark in there is a way for us enthusiasts to say that we don't like age statement downgrades and we don't like NAS in general. Doesn't putting the ? and scare quotes around the age statement for Weller -- hey, we should be talking about age when comparing it with ORVW, because it is age stated, right? -- make it look bad? When I say I'm comparing Weller "?"/107 with ORVW 10/107, do you not get a sense of scorn? Maybe it won't make a difference but, hey, you never know. Anyway, I'll be doing so from henceforth.

From a commercial perspective, you typically don't want to associate your product with a question mark. It lends itself to not having faith or confidence in the product. What they should do is either put the oldest age of the whiskey or state "x to x" years. Again, I may not speak for everyone but in my early purchasing days; the age statement did influence purchasing decision. It is possible that is why it was removed, because no one was buying the younger expressions.

[Brisko]

Woe. I would say that is big news. I didn't know that Van Winkle was sourcing Bernhiem Wheat. Doesn't Heaven Hill own Bernheim distilleries and it's barrels?

This would have been distilled several years prior to HH's purchase of Bernheim.

[Bmac]

This would have been distilled several years prior to HH's purchase of Bernheim.

Geez, trying to keep straight who distilled and owns what is confusing o_@

[Kyjd75]

Have never tried the 10/90, but I do have some of the 10/107, and it is really nice stuff. I have compared it with OWA 107 and I think the ORVW 10/107 is noticeably better. Interestingly, Sour Mash Manifesto found that a comparison of the 10/90 and Weller 12 was very close (8.8 for Weller 12 and 9.2 for the 10/90).

If I can find some 10/90, I'll make my own comparison, but so far I have only seen 10/107 in the stores here in central Ky.

[BillP]

Has anyone found this in Colorado?

Bill

[TheDude]

Just finished my last drop (sob, sob) of ORVW 10/90 last night. My wife tried to get me PVW 15 for Christmas and was unsuccessful but was able to get the ORVW for me. I am a big Weller fan, especially Weller 12 and OWA. I must say for $36 the ORVW 10/90 is a good deal, too bad it is so dang hard to get.

As much as I like Weller 12, the ORVW 10/90 is superior. It has a creamy sweetness about it with very little "hotness". The Weller 12 can be a little hot. The sweetness in ORVW 10/90 is a maple syrup like sweetness that is different from the brown sugar sweetness in the Weller 12/OWA.

I'd buy the ORVW 10/90 regularly if I could.

[Chuckles]

Have not yet stumbled upon a ORVW 10/90. Have a 10/107 recently opened, a bottle that involved some searching for last fall. An open Weller 7/107 sits next to it, and IMHO fares well with the Van Winkle, which doesn't seem to stack up with my 10/107s from last year. While on the subject, 7/107 is the only Weller I can seem to find on the shelves here. And, of course, no Van Winkle. What's a wheater lover to do?

[Chuckles]

Went to a bigger Binny's last night and there were cases of Weller 12 blocking the aisle, plenty of Antique, and a fair amount of Binny's select Special Reserve. No Van Winkle, of course.

[LongBeachScott]

I have compared ORVW 10/107 to Weller Antique and ORVW 10/90 to Weller 12 side-by-side and while I like all four, I would have to say I taste definite differences between the ORVW and Weller. The main thing, to me, is the initial hotness being present in Weller. It isn't unpleasant to me, it's just there. I think it is fair to compare ORVW and Weller as similar, but the ORVWs seem to always have more going on. But not by a huge amount.

That said, price and availability do matter to me and Weller wins that one hands down.

[Chuckles]

I finally laid my hands on my first bottle of ORVW 10/90 and find it a pleasant pour. I agree with LongBeachScott (above) for the most part on the comparisons of the two Wellers with the two ORVWs. I don't find that much initial hotness in the Wellers, and I do like the finish on the ORVWs better. ORVW 10/107 is my favorite of the bunch, and I would like to have it around all the time, but, like Scott said, price and availability do matter, and like FishNBowlJoe says, I've never met a Weller I didn't like, so the Wellers remain regular purchases--for convenience, value, and taste. I will go out of my way to find a Lot B or a Pappy 15, though, as those are special pours for me.

[Gillman]

Excellent product and agree with Weller_Tex on the creamy maple-like sweetness. very much a brandy-like whiskey.

I preferred it in fact to a Lot B I got at the same time (this in Ontario), the overall balance was better.

There is still though in my mind - and I can only stress taste is personal - a divide between wheat-recipe and rye-recipe bourbons and I still prefer the latter. They seem more complex, more is happening, than with any wheater I've had even for the great days of MM and S-W.

Gary

[White Dog]

It's April 4th, Joe. We're all rootin' for ya!!!

[wildcatdon]

I fear my taste buds are changing but does anyone else think the ORVW 107 taste is more medicinal,or metallic than it used to be? I find myself liking the 90 much better now..I used to be able to smell and taste the oak barrel in the 107 and now,not so much..maybe it is just me but I am not so sure..It has been that way for the last 3-4 bottles I have purchased...Truly sad..