Bourbon Knowledge (Or Lack Thereof)

[Old Lamplighter]

I was not sure what to name this thread, or, if even proper to start a new one. However, I could not find one already in existence in which it seemed to fit. In any event, if the Moderator sees fit to move or merge it, feel free to do so...no offense taken.

I have been in & out a lot the last several months juggling work & school and not much spare time for the hobby. In one of my recent night classes, I was entertained by a discussion I overheard during a break. I intentionally chose not to participate for several reasons of which I will not elaborate. However, I am sure many of us have heard such discussions in the past and will encounter again in the future. I certainly have and, in the past, have interjected my limited knowledge to help guide the misguided where I felt it was welcome. In this most recent situation, I did not. Anyhow, without further ado, the letter "P" indicates the different persons speaking.

P1: Some people collect stamps or coins for a hobby, but I like to buy & try various whiskeys...that's my hobby.

P2: I used drink whiskey but haven't had any since I was 22 (now in his 30s)...my favorite was Dickel...it's some good stuff!

P3: What is Dickel?

P2: It's whiskey...bourbon I think...not sure what it's called but you'll never find any better whiskey!

P1: No, it's not bourbon unless it's made in Kentucky...otherwise it's Tennessee whiskey

P2: Oh, I'm sure Dickel is bourbon then cause it's made in Kentucky I think

P1: It's all the same....only one is made in Kentucky and the other in Tennessee....other than that, no difference

P3: I always liked JD...bourbon I guess...no, no...it's made in Tennessee....the only whiskey made in Kentucky is bourbon?

P4: Man!, that JD single barrel is very, very good bourbon! I think it is the best.

P1: I'm not sure about Jack anymore after trying a lot of other bourbon...it's good but just not on par with some others I've tried

P5: I like about any kind of bourbon no matter where it's made!

It went on a little longer but only unraveled further as a few more "knowledgeable" folk began to join in and expand the "knowledge". In hindsight, I suppose I should have used the situation to teach some truth. However, most of these guys were a lot younger than me and not being part of their 'clique' from working together, I declined. Overall, it was some amusement that tended to motivate me to get through the rest of the class after a long day....and buy a bottle on the way home...lol Thanks for your indulgence....I'm grateful to have this Forum as well as you guys & gals from whom I have learned much and continue to do so.

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY! BE SAFE!!

[tigerlam92]

I guess it's about exposure and experience. Also in life we learn a great deal more when we try to listen and learn first. The P's could use a little more of both.

I still remember so many years ago when a friend told me how great Gentlemen Jack was and when taking a shot, it has to be coke back.

Cheers

-Hugh

[KYPayne]

I went to dinner with a female acquaintance of mine who was a server at restaurant with a well-stocked bar and a male friend of hers a few months ago. I said something about my love of whiskey, and we started talking about it. Her friend that the difference between bourbon and whiskey is that bourbon was higher quality, but my friend said, "All bourbon is whiskey but not all whiskey is bourbon." She continued saying that she loved it when people ordered bourbon because she liked the smell. She said it reminded her of butterscotch candy. She's never drank whiskey in her life but recognized a smell aside from alcohol.

I love it when people talk about how much they love such and and such whiskey but all they do is knock it back. I work a lot of nights, so I usually go to the liquor store during the day, around noon or so. I went into a store to grab some Booker's (I'd never had it, and I regret that I did), and the man who was working said, "Ahh, the big bad Booker's. One shot'll get you there. What're you doin' today?"

"Not much."

He bagged the box and laughed, "I believe it."

Generally, everyone assumes that I'm just trying to hammered.

[dbk]

Generally, everyone assumes that I'm just trying to hammered.

[Gillman]

It is a common reaction to an interest in whisk(e)y to assume one will over-indulge. This is presumably a hangover (sorry) from frontier and early settlement days when whiskey had an image largely as a roughhouse drink, a drink to make you drunk. Hence those examples in 1940's sources and earlier, which I find tedious, that this bar doesn't serve cocktails and fancy drinks but whiskey to get men drunk blah blah. Today at any rate, those who drink alcohol know or should know that it shouldn't be abused or spoken of in that fashion. It is a beverage alcohol like any other form. You can get f***ed up on wine and beer too and plenty do, unfortunately. Drink should be promoted, if at all, responsibly. Old notions take a long time to erode from folk memory however, what can you say...

That gent who said whiskey was different from bourbon was right IMO in a rough and ready way, he meant I think that whiskey was blended or Canadian, and bourbon was a straight whiskey with a more traditional taste.

My view is that when people say things about whiskey that aren't correct or could benefit from specialized knowledge, it is best to stay silent as you did since it isn't polite really to challenge other people on something they say unless you know them well and hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Also, it's hard to start because you don't know when you're going to finish and rarely have enough time! E.g. commonly I read the statement that Canadian rye often if not typically has little rye in it, and can have none at all, but thus and such brand has a lot of rye in it, or is all-rye, so that is a more authentic rye whiskey, rye like it presumably was at one point. Well, that is true and it's not. A vital factor is distillation proof: if most of what is in the bottle is distilled out at a proof close to or at the level used to make vodka, the fact that it is distilled from rye will matter very little since the spirit has been rectified to near neutrality before aging. In my experience, this vital point is rarely appreciated by most, yet it is important to understand it to assess whether a whisky which is made from all-rye will really taste different than one which has little or no rye in it.

I've found the best opportunity to impart knowledge is with good friends who are interested in the subject - most won't be and who can blame them? An intense interest in drink - I mean one in which quantity drinking is not part of the equation - is one of the odder corners of the world's knowledge, and what interests us here will generally appeal to very few people. (Hence the salutary and much-appreciated existence of SB!). Even where non-multiple unit interest exists, usually, or in my experience again, it is on some peripheral (to us) aspect such as company history, economic history, bottle design, bottle collecting and so forth. The gastronomic side of it - the description of palate flavors and how they are produced, the way whiskeys are classified and regulated - has very little interest in the wider community much less details of still operation, vaporization rates and so forth. And that's fine, everyone has areas that interest them for some reason, just because alcohol is widely consumed doesn't mean people take or should take a detailed interest in its palate range, production methods and classification.

So the kind of experience recounted is familiar to many here, but that's okay.

Gary

Edited July 4, 2012 by Gillman

[cowdery]

It's also a Prohibition hangover, in that for a large part of the population (even some who drink) the only proper thing you can teach about alcohol is why you shouldn't drink it. Since I teach classes about whiskey, I'm also struck at how aggressive some people can be in their ignorance. Yet the only facts they can offer are that 'some guy' told them such and such. The fact that so many people who work in the industry, particularly servers, are so ignorant is part of the problem, but training them is almost impossible since they turn over so fast. And then there's the fact that a lot of people who have problems with alcohol are in denial about it. They tell themselves that it's the straight spirits drinkers who have a 'problem,' not them, because they only drink beer or Chardonnay.

Edited July 4, 2012 by cowdery

[sutton]

I suppose we were all there at one point. At some point in the past, we decided to learn more - what that trigger was is different for everyone. Until I saw someone order a Sazerac and school the uninformed bartender on how to make it, I really didn't give bourbon or rye much of a thought, never mind other variants (Canadian, Scotch (blended, vatted, or single), what makes a whiskey a straight whiskey, etc). I'm not sure what it was that made me pay attention to this gentleman at that particular moment, other than the thought that, "Wow, if he is that singular in his intent, maybe I should give it a try." It ultimately led me here.

I don't come from a family that indulged in brown spirits - my family culture is wine, with the occasional grappa or limoncello thrown in. Others may come from a family background that always had bourbon/whiskey around. In my case, I think my dad had the same fifth of Jim Beam White for a couple of decades, and it only came out when having folks over who might want a highball - which didn't happen often!

So I can understand the mis-informed - I'm still learning myself. And I think you did the right thing not jumping in - one day, some of them might have an experience like I did that leads them down the path to seek out more info, and they'll look back on that conversation and have a laugh.

[Flyfish]

In every discussion of legalizing marijuana, you can count on an advocate saying that grass is less harmful than alcohol and that the only reason it is objectionable is that is illegal. Make it legal and the problem goes away, they claim.

It seems to me that it is possible (based on decades of experience) to drink responsibly. In the case of marijuana, however, the sole purpose is to get totally blasted. Bourbon drinkers, of the proper sort, (i.e., us) are interested in the color, nose, how it presents to the palate, and the finish. As far as I know (being totally bereft of experience), the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies.

[luther.r]

Lack of public knowledge seems to hang around every hobby one gets into. From personal experience:

Vintage Italian Motorcycles: "Cool. Is that a Ducati?" "No, it's an MV Agusta." "Oh. Is that made by Ducati?"

Tequila: "Yeah, tequila sucks. Except Patron. Patron is awwwwesommmmme." or "You like tequila? Do you eat the worm?"

Analog synthesizers: "Cool, a Moog! ELP used to play one!" "This is made by Buchla." "But it's a Moog, right?"

Pinball: "Oh yeah, I'm a huge pinball fan." (CRACK from match) [jumps] "What the hell was that?"

Edited July 5, 2012 by luther.r

[Gillman]

Just tonight at dinner, couple next to our table were discussing the best Scotch. The discussion centered on Johnnie Walker. It was the only brand mentioned. How the Blue was the best but expensive, the Double Black was a good option below that, the Red decent for the price (all true), but no mention of other brands much less single malts. Then they moved on to something else. I was going to make some good-natured suggestions but decided against it per my theory earlier that it is best not to obtrude when people I don't know well discuss an area like this.

Gary

[KYPayne]

As far as consumption goes, you also have people who drink on occasion solely to relax and unwind. It's using alcohol to self-medicate in a way. There are times when late at night before a day off from work I'll sit on the back porch till 2 in the morning drinking bourbon and smoking a cigar. I'll a drink a few glasses as long as my cigar is burning. In those periods I'm not analyzing the complexities of my drink. I'm simply taking pleasure in something that I love. If it's a drink I'm familiar with, then there isn't too much more to ponder anyway.

My Dad drank maybe 3 beers a year until I became interested in whiskey. He doesn't particularly like whiskey and doesn't understand why appreciate it (though I'll have him nose with me on occasion to help him to understand). Nowadays, we'll go shoot pool or go out for wings, and he'll drink a few beers, like he used to do before I was born. The beer choices at pool halls and chain restaurants are slim usually, so I'll try a different mass marketed consumer brand every time just for variety. He always gets Michelob Ultra. He prefers lighter beers and shuns porters and stouts whereas I'll try any beer for the sake trying it. My Dad, I believe, doesn't enjoy beer as much as he enjoys the effects, but he drinks with much less frequency than I do.

My Dad, in a way, self medicates with beer. He drinks it to relax. I drink bourbon (and sometimes Scotch) to relax not because I crave the effects of liquor but because I enjoy the flavors. There's a certain pleasure that's wrought from it. The question is though, would I still drink bourbon if it didn't have any sort physiological effects? I think I would. It might sound strange, but I approach soft drinks with a certain connoisseurship on occasion when I find a bottle of Double Cola or something with limited distribution. I drink the coke for the experience of drinking it.

There's a dichotomy: people who drink for pleasure for nearly medicinal purposes and people who drink for pleasure of the experience. To add to what Gillman said, most people who drink for drink's sake are branded drinkers themselves. I work for a functional alcoholic who prefers Ocho tequila, which he drinks by the fifth from the bottle. My step grandfather has drank VOB BIB exclusively for the past 40 years. They found something palatable and stayed with it. My mother's side of the family is filled with adamant teetotalers. Daily consumption is seen as a fast road to alcoholism, regardless of the amount consumed. From my own experience, I've found that the amount I consume is not correlated to my need for drink. It's one's purpose in drinking that creates addiction. When anything becomes a coping mechanism, food, drink, or sex even, it places you in danger of dependance. I could never drink again, but I have no reason not to because it's a bright spot in life, like playing the piano or shooting pool.

[tmckenzie]

We see it everyday in our tasting room. One thing that annoys the hell out of me is people will ask me, since I distill for a living is, I bet you stay screwed up all day. I inform them no, that on occasion when needed, I will taste something, but that I run the still with my nose. You cannot run it by taste. But at the end of the conversation, they still beleive that I drink all day because I am around it. nonsense.

[Gillman]

But the situation is changing as Prohibition (responsible for much as Chuck said) recedes in the folk memory and knowledge gains that a standard measure of spirits is equal to a standard serving of beer or wine. In large centers now the place of whisky amongst the alcoholic drinks is becoming normalized in the sense that it is increasingly viewed as part of gastronomic heritage. Commensurately it is being recognized that any alcoholic drink can be abused - beer was often viewed leniently in the past due to its standard 5% strength - and people as always must be cautious as to what they consume and when - a personal decision in the end as it always was.

But anyway this idea of the special potency and danger of whisky is just one aspect of the original post in the thread which is that there is a lot of general misapprehension and misunderstanding of what is what in the world of spirits. That part won't change I think since like any specialized area of knowledge, only a few will have the interest to understand it further. JD will always be viewed I think as "sour mash" in the general public mind (heard that a million times), not sure why and it is hard to figure out these enduring tales sometimes but there you have it.

Gary

[CorvallisCracker]

It was kindly boxed up for me—in an empty vodka box, I believe—

Vodka box. Got that.

...a young gentleman waiting on the platform from remarking "You gonna get fucked up tonight, man."

Well, sure. What else is vodka good for?

[dbk]

Well, sure. What else is vodka good for?

Floor cleaner comes to mind.

[T Comp]

Great comments from everyone and describes many of my experiences. I just bowed out from giving free but requested knowledge to a friend in the bar business, with a developing American whiskey concept, because the hired professional consulting mixologist was, as Chuck described, way to aggressive in his ignorance.

I'd like to touch on Gary's first post with his advice about generally staying silent unless asked. I endorse this view also as a recognition and reminder of our own cognitive bias for whiskey/bourbon. Our choices and resulting knowledge comes from our emotions, self image and bias. Knowledgeable :grin: people studying this stuff have terms like "choice supportive effect" or "endowment effect". Even though most of us are not "fanboys" of one given brand we are still "fanboys" of bourbon and it is a big part of who we are; but it is based on our biases and gives us biases. I know I'm kind of riffing a bit pessimistically on something Gary said (who is an optimist)...but I work with a lot of experts and notice (or is it another bias on my part ) the more you take your ego out of what you are an expert on...the more you are an expert. Except when it comes to vodka...feel free to blast away.

Edited July 5, 2012 by T Comp

[AaronWF]

In every discussion of legalizing marijuana, you can count on an advocate saying that grass is less harmful than alcohol and that the only reason it is objectionable is that is illegal. Make it legal and the problem goes away, they claim.

It seems to me that it is possible (based on decades of experience) to drink responsibly. In the case of marijuana, however, the sole purpose is to get totally blasted. Bourbon drinkers, of the proper sort, (i.e., us) are interested in the color, nose, how it presents to the palate, and the finish. As far as I know (being totally bereft of experience), the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies.

Well this is an excellent illustration of how easy it is to waive opinions or prejudices around and call them undeniable fact in just the same manner this thread is discussing general ignorance when it comes whiskey. In fact, I'm not sure what your point is with this paragraph other than to try to gather up the responsible bourbon drinkers around here and gang up on the legalization of marijuana.

"Being totally bereft of experience," as you put it, you really have no basis to make claims that the sole purpose of ingesting marijuana is to get "totally blasted," nor to claim that "the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies." Rest assured, and this is coming from someone who does have experience, there are other ways to enjoy the effects of marijuana than just getting totally blasted and resorting to eating a pan of brownies, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Anything is harmful for you in excessive quantities, and I would suggest not turning your righteous indignation with alcohol prohibitionists around on pro-legalization advocates, thereby becoming the prohibitionist yourself on a subject of which you are ignorant.

[wripvanwrinkle]

Well this is an excellent illustration of how easy it is to waive opinions or prejudices around and call them undeniable fact in just the same manner this thread is discussing general ignorance when it comes whiskey. In fact, I'm not sure what your point is with this paragraph other than to try to gather up the responsible bourbon drinkers around here and gang up on the legalization of marijuana.

"Being totally bereft of experience," as you put it, you really have no basis to make claims that the sole purpose of ingesting marijuana is to get "totally blasted," nor to claim that "the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies." Rest assured, and this is coming from someone who does have experience, there are other ways to enjoy the effects of marijuana than just getting totally blasted and resorting to eating a pan of brownies, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Anything is harmful for you in excessive quantities, and I would suggest not turning your righteous indignation with alcohol prohibitionists around on pro-legalization advocates, thereby becoming the prohibitionist yourself on a subject of which you are ignorant.

Good point. I think that the kettle was calling the pot black.

:ducks:

Edited July 5, 2012 by wripvanwrinkle

[Kalessin]

Lack of public knowledge seems to hang around every hobby one gets into. From personal experience:

[...]

Pinball: "Oh yeah, I'm a huge pinball fan." (CRACK from match) [jumps] "What the hell was that?"

Damn, I miss pinball... On the other hand, if I'd invested all those quarters from about 1975 through the early 2000s that I dropped into pinball machines, I'd probably be able to buy a few cases of really nice whiskey AND a Ducati...

Edited July 5, 2012 by Kalessin

[White Dog]

Well this is an excellent illustration of how easy it is to waive opinions or prejudices around and call them undeniable fact in just the same manner this thread is discussing general ignorance when it comes whiskey. In fact, I'm not sure what your point is with this paragraph other than to try to gather up the responsible bourbon drinkers around here and gang up on the legalization of marijuana.

"Being totally bereft of experience," as you put it, you really have no basis to make claims that the sole purpose of ingesting marijuana is to get "totally blasted," nor to claim that "the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies." Rest assured, and this is coming from someone who does have experience, there are other ways to enjoy the effects of marijuana than just getting totally blasted and resorting to eating a pan of brownies, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Anything is harmful for you in excessive quantities, and I would suggest not turning your righteous indignation with alcohol prohibitionists around on pro-legalization advocates, thereby becoming the prohibitionist yourself on a subject of which you are ignorant.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[KYPayne]

Anything is harmful for you in excessive quantities, and I would suggest not turning your righteous indignation with alcohol prohibitionists around on pro-legalization advocates, thereby becoming the prohibitionist yourself on a subject of which you are ignorant.

I've never known anyone to smoke marijuana for any other reason besides intoxication just as in my own experience with drinkers they all just want to get drunk. That simply illustrates that most people's concern is getting intoxicated regardless of the method.

[Trey Manthey]

I've never known anyone to smoke marijuana for any other reason besides intoxication just as in my own experience with drinkers they all just want to get drunk. That simply illustrates that most people's concern is getting intoxicated regardless of the method.

Just because you've never known something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I drink bourbon (and sometimes Scotch) to relax not because I crave the effects of liquor but because I enjoy the flavors. There's a certain pleasure that's wrought from it. The question is though, would I still drink bourbon if it didn't have any sort physiological effects? I think I would. It might sound strange, but I approach soft drinks with a certain connoisseurship on occasion when I find a bottle of Double Cola or something with limited distribution. I drink the coke for the experience of drinking it.

You're talking about "experiencing flavors" as if it were somehow a loftier goal than what other people expect when they are partaking in something for enjoyment's sake. FYI, different varieties of marijuana have different tastes, smells, and effects.

[tmckenzie]

Well this is an excellent illustration of how easy it is to waive opinions or prejudices around and call them undeniable fact in just the same manner this thread is discussing general ignorance when it comes whiskey. In fact, I'm not sure what your point is with this paragraph other than to try to gather up the responsible bourbon drinkers around here and gang up on the legalization of marijuana.

"Being totally bereft of experience," as you put it, you really have no basis to make claims that the sole purpose of ingesting marijuana is to get "totally blasted," nor to claim that "the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies." Rest assured, and this is coming from someone who does have experience, there are other ways to enjoy the effects of marijuana than just getting totally blasted and resorting to eating a pan of brownies, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Anything is harmful for you in excessive quantities, and I would suggest not turning your righteous indignation with alcohol prohibitionists around on pro-legalization advocates, thereby becoming the prohibitionist yourself on a subject of which you are ignorant.

I could not have said it better. And just like whiskey, marijuana in moderate doses has some good medical benifits.

[KYPayne]

Just because you've never known something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that people don't use marijuana for different reasons. I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm saying is that from my experience the majority of marijuana users do not care about the nuances of various varieties of pot just like most drinkers don't really care about the myriad of whiskeys available to them. There's a whole "let's get stoned" crowd that correlates to the "let's get drunk" crowd. They're different substances used for the same purpose by many people. Like with liquor, most people fail to see that there's any possible of moderation with marijuana.

[Trey Manthey]

Really the only time I flex any knowledge of whiskey is if someone asks me because they know I'm into it, or when I've got them captive at my bar and express some interest in the difference between all the bottles. I often get the "What's the difference between scotch/bourbon and whiskey." When I'm at my home base, I can let people smell and taste different things, find what they like, then make them a cocktail they'll enjoy. If they're brave I'll pour it neat, but this almost always ends up with a barely sipped glass.

It's fun for me, because I remember when I was clueless about the same things, and I enjoy passing the knowledge on in a sensory, hands-on fashion. Much more exciting than reading about it on Wikipedia and tasting it alone at home.