Bourbon Knowledge (Or Lack Thereof)

[mosugoji64]

This reminds me of an experience I had a while back when I stopped into a local store looking for a couple of specific bottles. The clerk stated that they did not have the bottles in question, but pointed to some bottom-shelf bottles saying, "Why spend a lot of money when you're just gonna piss it out anyway?" I kindly thanked him for his assistance and left.

[White Dog]

This reminds me of an experience I had a while back when I stopped into a local store looking for a couple of specific bottles. The clerk stated that they did not have the bottles in question, but pointed to some bottom-shelf bottles saying, "Why spend a lot of money when you're just gonna piss it out anyway?" I kindly thanked him for his assistance and left.

Wow. What a great "up-sell." I bet the owner would've loved that line!

[soad]

Well this is an excellent illustration of how easy it is to waive opinions or prejudices around and call them undeniable fact in just the same manner this thread is discussing general ignorance when it comes whiskey. In fact, I'm not sure what your point is with this paragraph other than to try to gather up the responsible bourbon drinkers around here and gang up on the legalization of marijuana.

"Being totally bereft of experience," as you put it, you really have no basis to make claims that the sole purpose of ingesting marijuana is to get "totally blasted," nor to claim that "the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies." Rest assured, and this is coming from someone who does have experience, there are other ways to enjoy the effects of marijuana than just getting totally blasted and resorting to eating a pan of brownies, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Anything is harmful for you in excessive quantities, and I would suggest not turning your righteous indignation with alcohol prohibitionists around on pro-legalization advocates, thereby becoming the prohibitionist yourself on a subject of which you are ignorant.

Well said sir, well said.

[KYPayne]

This reminds me of an experience I had a while back when I stopped into a local store looking for a couple of specific bottles. The clerk stated that they did not have the bottles in question, but pointed to some bottom-shelf bottles saying, "Why spend a lot of money when you're just gonna piss it out anyway?" I kindly thanked him for his assistance and left.

That's awesome! Every time I'm approached by an employee about the bottle I'm looking at they always seem to say, "Have you ever had that?" I usually say, "Nope," regardless if I have or not. "I have. It's so clean and smooth."

Those are the two most common descriptors liquor store people give me.

[CoMobourbon]

My Dad, I believe, doesn't enjoy beer as much as he enjoys the effects...

My Dad, in a way, self medicates with beer. He drinks it to relax. I drink bourbon (and sometimes Scotch) to relax not because I crave the effects of liquor but because I enjoy the flavors.

There's a dichotomy: people who drink for pleasure for nearly medicinal purposes and people who drink for pleasure of the experience.

As useful and even necessary as it it to outline this dichotomy, it is even more necessary to tear it down. It's worth saying, but only if we immediately follow it up with 'of course it doesn't really work like that'.

"Medicinal pleasure" and "pleasure of the experience" (the quality and complexity of flavor, etc.) are distinct only as categories. Really, the physiological effects of alcohol are so inseparable from the "pleasure of the experience" - what we call the flavor profile of a good whiskey - that there is no drawing lines between these pleasures or between those who partake in them. The pleasant tastes of whiskey depend on the pleasant relaxing effect of alcohol. Even when we think we want the flavors (or even the scents), it is only because we have come to associate them with that medicinal goodness.

Think of it in terms of conditioning. When it comes down to it, there are only a few flavors that we as human animals find inherently pleasing - fatty, salty, and sweet, I think - and there are tons of cheap, easy ways of getting these flavors in much more intense forms than straight whiskey could ever provide. Kettle corn pretty much covers it. Our hankering for any other flavor profile is acquired, and it is acquired by conditioning associations between those profiles and experiences/pleasures we find inherently pleasant. Apparently we find the physiological rush of alcohol consumption pleasant, and the flavors that mediate that rush become desirable by association. We drink whiskey with flavors X, Y, and Z, we experience alcohol effects that our bodies like, and we eventually start to just look for flavors X, Y, and Z. Presumably marijuana, wine, beer, sex, etc. work the same way.

So yes, there are people who are more or less only after the alcohol effects. And I totally agree with you about the crucial difference between dependency and deliberate enjoyment. (If anything, dependency is more scary to me because of what I have just said.) But if we really let ourselves believe that we are transcendent connoisseurs who are ever in it only for the flavors, we are s-----g ourselves. Even if we only ever experienced whiskey by the nose, the promise of alcohol would be a huge determining factor in our enjoyment.

*Now I am off to enjoy my daily breakfast of bacon, cocoa puffs, and vodka.

Edited July 8, 2012 by CoMobourbon
Thought of a HILARIOUS joke

[CoMobourbon]

This reminds me of an experience I had a while back when I stopped into a local store looking for a couple of specific bottles. The clerk stated that they did not have the bottles in question, but pointed to some bottom-shelf bottles saying, "Why spend a lot of money when you're just gonna piss it out anyway?" I kindly thanked him for his assistance and left.

[Enoch]

In every discussion of legalizing marijuana, you can count on an advocate saying that grass is less harmful than alcohol and that the only reason it is objectionable is that is illegal. Make it legal and the problem goes away, they claim.

It seems to me that it is possible (based on decades of experience) to drink responsibly. In the case of marijuana, however, the sole purpose is to get totally blasted. Bourbon drinkers, of the proper sort, (i.e., us) are interested in the color, nose, how it presents to the palate, and the finish. As far as I know (being totally bereft of experience), the only effect of grass on the palate is it gives you the munchies.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Enoch

[Josh]

The only time I routinely offer unsolicited advice about whiskey is when somebody is standing in front of the bourbon section of the store looking confused. The supermarket where I shop has a great wine-guy, but he doesn't know anything about spirits, especially Bourbon or Scotch.

[dbk]

The only time I routinely offer unsolicited advice about whiskey is when somebody is standing in front of the bourbon section of the store looking confused.

Me too. If I see someone looking at the whiskies in bewilderment, I'll usually—and very politely—offer some assistance. I'll also make it clear I'm only offering suggestions (usually "value" pours, because few people want to drop the coin I'm willing to spend), and so they shouldn't feel any pressure to go with my recommendations.

[MyOldKyDram]

The only time I've offered advice is when people have actually come up to me and asked me for it. Poor bastards.

[AaronWF]

When I see people vacillating between Maker's Mark and WT101 on a shelf full of BT and HH bourbon, I often can't help but let slip some recommendation. The other week, two just-out-of-college looking dudes were doing just that, and I couldn't help but point out the AAA 10yo (new on that store's shelf) for $17.99. They immediately yanked it off the shelf, thanking me, and headed straight for the cashier. It feels good knowing I steered them right and gave them an in on something they likely wouldn't have found on their own.

[KYPayne]

As useful and even necessary as it it to outline this dichotomy, it is even more necessary to tear it down. It's worth saying, but only if we immediately follow it up with 'of course it doesn't really work like that'.

We do lots of things for pleasure, but pleasure is seldom the only motivation. With sex there are emotional elements. With food there's a certain taste element that correlates with the endorphin rush. With exercise there's the endorphins plus the sense of personal accomplishment. There may be occasions where I drink a few extra glasses to help me forget about life for awhile, but those days are few and between. Alcohol does make it the experience more enjoyable, but perhaps only because there's no alternative to alcoholic bourbon. We associate alcohol with the bourbon flavors. Our motivations as bourbon drinkers are many. There are some days when I'm in the mood for tasting, so I'll reach for a Glencarin glass and my notebook and take notes. There are some days when I'll reach for a tumbler. I'm sure if it were really bad day I'd reach for the bottle, but that day has never come. There are reasons why I don't knock back my whiskey. There are reasons why I don't drink mix my whiskey with coke or just buy a handle of vodka and make screwdrivers or what have you. The palatability is important. The flavor is important. If we didn't associate alcohol with bourbon though then alcohol wouldn't be a part of the experience at all.

I don't think that it's strictly chemical responses that motivate us to continue drinking, but it definitely plays a part. As far a dependency goes, there's a difference between having a bad day at work and needing a drink and having a bad day at work and wanting a drink. It's not the amount consumed: it's the motivations behind the consumption. Personally, I only drink on days that end in "Y," but if I don't have time to enjoy my drink I don't just drink for the sake of drinking.

[CoMobourbon]

We do lots of things for pleasure, but pleasure is seldom the only motivation.

Alcohol does make it the experience more enjoyable, but perhaps only because there's no alternative to alcoholic bourbon. We associate alcohol with the bourbon flavors.

The palatability is important. The flavor is important. If we didn't associate alcohol with bourbon though then alcohol wouldn't be a part of the experience at all.

I don't think that it's strictly chemical responses that motivate us to continue drinking, but it definitely plays a part. As far a dependency goes, there's a difference between having a bad day at work and needing a drink and having a bad day at work and wanting a drink.

(bold added)

Again, I'm totally with you on the distinction between deliberate consumption and dependency. This is in no way a judgement on anyone's drinking ethics, much less on yours, which seem more than fine to me.

I am not, however, so much with you on the parts that I have bolded above. Interest in the alcohol response definitely comes first. And I didn't pay too much attention in my Psych 1000 class, but I am pretty sure that this is not a matter of opinion but rather one of patent fact. People are biologically/physiologically made to respond to alcohol; people are not biologically/physiologically made to respond to whiskey flavors. Any interest in whiskey flavors must therefore be acquired. Because the alcohol response precedes the whiskey flavor that it accompanies, alcohol seems likely to be the cause of this interest in flavor, and a lot of anecdotal evidence (people acquire the taste for specific flavors in explicitly flavorless vodka, for godsake) has confirmed this causal relationship for me. It is possible that people would acquire tastes for specific whiskey flavors without alcohol, but given that alcohol is present, alcohol is a powerful physiological stimulus, and so many people like the flavors of whiskey, I think that the proposition stretches coincidence way past its breaking point.

None of this is to say that flavor isn't important. Hell, I have invested a lot of attention and money in the idea that flavor matters. And I also don't mean that when you are reaching for whiskey the only thought in one's mind is "yes, time to get loaded" or even "yes, I love these flavors because I am always drunk when I taste them, and I like being drunk". But the alcohol response is primary and integral in a way that no interest in any flavor ever could be. And to just say that flavor and alcohol both play a part is at best not really saying much and at worst missing a huge point about how flavor interest is acquired. I mean, I love my whiskey flavors, but there is no godly way that I was born with an interest in the flavors of woody fermented grain water. Something that I was born with pushed me in that direction, and because it provided the initial chemical push, it continues to profoundly influence the experience every single time I pick up a glass.

*Really, though, it comes down what we assume about human nature; are we basically moral decision makers who operate in the realm of culturally defined options and who deal with animal needs on the side, or are we basically animals driven by physical/chemical needs with a bunch of moral and cultural dimensions added on top? I tend to think the latter. If you think the former (and it sounds like you might), then I have all the respect for you in the world, but it's going to be hard to come to an understanding here.

Edited July 9, 2012 by CoMobourbon

[ethangsmith]

The guys at work and most of my friends know I'm an American whiskey guy and do ask me for advice on occasion. I always try to give them simple, short advice to guide their decision.

Living in Pennsylvania, we have to buy all of our wine and spirits from the state-run "State Stores." I've found the vast majority of State Store employees have little to no knowledge about American whiskey. They point to Beam, Maker's Mark or Eagle Rare pretty much every time. Often times when I visit a local State Store to see what's new (HA HA, Like product selection ever changes......) I will see someone with a puzzled look just walking up and down the row staring at the bottles. I often ask them if they need help with a selection and what they're looking for (Cheap, expensive, strong, light, sweet, bitter, etc...). Since I've had pretty much every bottle that's on the shelf, I can usually fit them with something they will really enjoy. I've talked a few people out of Jack Daniel's in favor of Dickel 8 or even Evan Williams black label. I've had the opposite happen as well. I'll be looking over the selection and someone comes in and walks right up to the shelf and grabs a Rare Breed or something really nice. I can't help but say "Excellent choice!" I've gotten into some really great conversation that way.

[KYPayne]

(bold added)*Really, though, it comes down what we assume about human nature; are we basically moral decision makers who operate in the realm of culturally defined options and who deal with animal needs on the side, or are we basically animals driven by physical/chemical needs with a bunch of moral and cultural dimensions added on top? I tend to think the latter. If you think the former (and it sounds like you might), then I have all the respect for you in the world, but it's going to be hard to come to an understanding here.

I've always been a man of absolutes, to be honest. But when dealing with blacks and whites you run into many many shades of grey, so very little is absolutely defined, but you can always try. Looking for absolutes really causes some cognitive dissonance (that's the one thing I remember from PSYCH 101). I guess really to me, motivation for doing something is equally important to me as what is done. I'm not denying that alcohol is not a strong motivator in the consumption, but I don't believe that it is the sole motivation. Alcohol may be the strongest motivator, but there's so much more involved in our pursuits of momentary hedonism. What's important though, to quote Winston Churchill, is to take more out of alcohol than alcohol takes out of you.

[CoMobourbon]

I think we agree more than we think we do.

What's important though, to quote Winston Churchill, is to take more out of alcohol than alcohol takes out of you.

And true that.

[CoMobourbon]

Regarding the OP, I honestly think that price and money play a huge factor in how much it hurts to not say something. I don't care that everyone isn't an enthusiast who knows all the details and idiosyncrasies, but when I see somebody get had by average but overpriced brand, it really, really hurts.

For example, when I see some guy walk in (in stereotypical construction worker get-up, you know) and grab a <$15 1.75L Ten High, I say power to him. I have no problem not sticking my nose in that guy's decision. Even if it was one that I might not have made.

But when I see some guy walk in, pace methodically up and down the whiskey aisle seemingly appraising everything with knowing poise (you know, randomly picking up bottles, reading the backs of labels, etc.), and walk out with a Crown Royal Black, a Maker's Mark (which runs at $28-29 fifth for some reason), a Jameson, and a Johnny Walker Black, I want to cry. Really, it is all that I can do to not literally groan out loud. He has the money for whiskeys I would unequivocally consider better and the pretension to boot, but he clearly only knows brands he has seen on billboards. And all this time I have been glancing out the corner of my eye at the FRSB LE 2011 which I know costs about $80 more than a poor college student should drop on whiskey (and which that guy clearly should have gotten, d----t!).

That hurts. You know a sucker is born every minute, but it is hard to watch the birth when it happens right in front of your eyes. But for better or worse, I have never said anything.

[KYPayne]

I know exactly what you mean. I don't have a problem with the guy who says, "I love me some Jim Beam or some Jack. I really don't care what it tastes like though, I just wanna get drunk." That kind of guy isn't being phony. He's upfront and honest about why he drinks. Then you have the phony aficionado who thinks that Crown Royal Black is the best thing that's ever touched his lips, constantly describing it as smooth (in fact I knew a guy tell me "Crown Royal Black is like Patron, really smooth"). Those type of guys think they know something about whiskey, but they stick to popular brands and feign any sort of advice on other brands. From my experience those sort of guys prefer a lighter whiskey (like Crown) that goes down easy because they think its what quality tastes like or a fiery, hot whiskey because whiskey that induces a grimace is masculine.

My first experience with alcohol was 100 proof Smirnoff red. It was exciting because it was alcohol, and it was new. My first experience with whiskey was a few glasses of JWR. I thought it was good because I had no basis for comparison plus it was new. The problem with these suckers is that they stick to the bottom shelf brands and never experience anything greater. They wouldn't know what to look for in higher quality bourbon.

[troyce]

Vodka box. Got that.

Well, sure. What else is vodka good for?

[callmeox]

mixed with Witch Hazel , it's an amazing aftershave lotion!

Witch Hazel?

25 bucks to the first GBS member who can produce a picture of the straight razor and strop from Jimmy's bathroom at home. :slappin:

[GaryT]

I've spent more than an hour in a liquor store chatting with one of the employees if they know their stuff. I've gotten some great recommendations from a guy who took the time to ask me what I liked, what I liked ABOUT it, what I didn't like, and what I didn't like about it. Based on that - he was able to pick out what he thought I would enjoy (and several he picked out were things I'd had before but didn't mention - and he was right most of the time!)

That makes it all the more disappointing to walk into a store and find that the employees can't tell me anything outside the price. I don't expect them all to be a subject matter expert on every type of liquor - that would be ridiculous. But the places that have one or two people who know their whiskey wind up getting more of my business because of it (even if they are a buck or two higher than the place down the road).

[cowdery]

Maybe I'm just cynical in my old age. I tend to think piping up and offering suggestions or information in a store or bar comes under the heading of 'no good deed goes unpunished.' Or maybe it's a big city thing, you just stay out of other people's business. Can't say I've never done it, but as time goes on I'm less and less likely to.

[Restaurant man]

Yep, I'm minding my own business if I'm a patron or a bystander unless the people seem really interested in learning. Even then my answers would be short and closed looped.

[Trey Manthey]

I was recently in a store browsing and picked up a bottle I knew I was going to pass on (Henry McKenna SB BIB, FWIW), but I wanted to read the label and study the packaging. The guy next to me watched me and offered his opinion on the whiskey, saying it was good.

At first I was thinking, "Look buddy, stand aside. I know what I'm doing." But I decided to be polite and we ended up having a very nice conversation about all sorts of topics (mostly whiskey related). Turned out he is a bartender at one of the best whiskey bars here in NOLA, The Bourbon House.

Then I meandered over to the Scotch section and starting perusing. These two gorgeous woman walked up briskly and start picking up bottles and putting them down like they were confused. I overheard one of them ask out loud, "What's the difference between Scotch and whiskey?" I held my tongue, not wanting to be a dork. Instead, I decided to offer my opinion on a particular Highland malt she picked up. She looked at my like I was crazy, put the bottle down, and walked off wordlessly.

Two polar opposite experiences within minutes. I think it just depends on the personality of the people involved. In the latter case, I misjudged, but I'm not discouraged. People need to be informed!

[soonami]

I was recently in a store browsing and picked up a bottle I knew I was going to pass on (Henry McKenna SB BIB, FWIW), but I wanted to read the label and study the packaging. The guy next to me watched me and offered his opinion on the whiskey, saying it was good.

At first I was thinking, "Look buddy, stand aside. I know what I'm doing." But I decided to be polite and we ended up having a very nice conversation about all sorts of topics (mostly whiskey related). Turned out he is a bartender at one of the best whiskey bars here in NOLA, The Bourbon House.

Then I meandered over to the Scotch section and starting perusing. These two gorgeous woman walked up briskly and start picking up bottles and putting them down like they were confused. I overheard one of them ask out loud, "What's the difference between Scotch and whiskey?" I held my tongue, not wanting to be a dork. Instead, I decided to offer my opinion on a particular Highland malt she picked up. She looked at my like I was crazy, put the bottle down, and walked off wordlessly.

Two polar opposite experiences within minutes. I think it just depends on the personality of the people involved. In the latter case, I misjudged, but I'm not discouraged. People need to be informed!

Bah! You only piped up because the woman were attractive. A couple, 50 year old, sweaty dudes looking at Scotch wouldn't have gotten your attention.

Truth be told, I'd probably do the same :grin: