Bourbon Knowledge (Or Lack Thereof)

[LikeItWasSodaPop]

Whether or not I engage with others about various whiskey related topics has a lot to do with my sense of the interpersonal dynamics at play.

A couple months ago, I was at the Binny's south loop store. Joe had just put out some ORVW 10/107. A group of early 20somethings were lingering in the bourbon aisle and looked on with a combination of confusion and awe as I noticed the bottles and then calmly fetched a basket and placed a good 7 or so of the bottles in it. As I was so doing, the guys looked at each other ... one had an ORVW in his hand, and the others seemed to be realizing: oh, that's something special.

I noticed a certain glint in their eyes and took some time to talk to them about bourbon. I gave high praise to this forum -- they were lurkers. I also told them about Joe and encouraged them to talk to him ... and lo and behold, who suddenly appeared? Hopefully some good came of that introduction!

I often find myself having good conversations in the whiskey aisles of various Binny'ses. More recently, I saw a gentleman hovering skeptically in front of a Heaven Hill BIB bottle. We ended up chatting, and it became clear that he knew of the HH BIB 6 year from this forum, and was trying to figure out if this particular bottle was it. It wasn't. He was a New Yorker searching for bottles he couldn't get back home. He ended up with VOB BIB and maybe Weller 12. He and his daughter reads these forums and he seemed genuinely pleased to meet someone who participates. Again, a lurker, as best as I could tell, but someone who clearly was starting to dig a bit deeper.

Good can come from these conversations; the key is encouragement / fraternity -- letting people know that there is a community out there ... people who care and people who want to foster their developing interest, if they're open to learning more. To me, the difficulty in these interactions is in quickly assessing whether that person staring at that bottle is interested in further discussion or not.

On the other hand, I now have a strict rule against correcting bartenders in any way. Not to say that I don't break that rule often, but when I do, and things go awry, I at least know why it happened. Bartenders are performers. Their job is to perform the role of a person who knows stuff about booze. And, increasingly, as the spirits world gets more complex and diverse, and consumers get more savvy, it's fairly frequent that I know more than the bartender, at least when it comes to bourbon. I'm sure most of us have the same experience most of the time.

Bartenders do not like this because it makes them look bad. I tend to think, hey, if you don't know your s$%@, and this makes you look bad, that's on you. But I also know that this is an arrogant opinion and demonstrating my arrogance is not all that conducive for a fun night out. So the rule is, as I've said, to shut the f!$% up and let the bartender spew whatever nonsense he/she wants. Because if I point out that Noah's Mill is not 15 y/o as is stated on like 2 dozen lists in Chicago (here's looking at you Premise/In Fine Spirits), the bartender is just going to act like a petulant little prick, because (a) he doesn't know that Noah's Mill hasn't been a 15 y/o in, like, forever, and ( his menu is wrong / false / deceptive.

As far as I can tell, nobody likes being called stupid and a liar at the same time (even if it's true). And, of course, half of the petulant attitude springs from a sense of "who gives a s*&% if it's really a 15 y/o or just a '15' y/o ... we just needed something to write so people will feel good about paying the preposterous prices we're charging."

Same goes for the details of who produced what and where. I was in Toronto last week and found some random non-distiller producer bottle or maybe some HH brand not available in the states. It was like Jackelope Dinkleberry Bourbon or something and produced, of course, at Jackelope Dinkleberry Distillery. And since this was a nice bar, and since the bartender was, truly, an amazing mixologist (Toronto seriously kicks tail, cocktail-wise), I wanted to speculate as to where this Dinkleberry may have come from -- probably HH, based on the taste of it, but maybe she knew something I didn't. This is often a fun source of conversation with bartenders, especially here in Chicago where many bartenders truly know their s@&^ when it comes to whisk(e)y (here's looking at you, Mike Ryan at Sable). But she was adamant: the Jackelope Dinkleberry Distillery exists, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot! This was the sole instance of non-politeness exhibited by a Canadian on my trip.

So I guess I'm still, generally, pro-talking in these situations. I guess maybe the important distinction to make is between lack of knowledge and willful ignorance / lack of curiosity. Maybe these two things mean the same thing, but I find that there are people who are uninformed or misinformed but want to know more and people who simply do not understand that knowledge takes hard work. I'm sometimes surprised by those who fit into the latter category because so many of them seem like people who should want to know better. In the end, I think I've done more good than harm when it comes to my bourbon blathering.

The key is remaining positive and non-condescending. Which, I'll admit, is much easier said than done!

[jcg9779]

There have been a couple of times that I've offered advice when someone looks confused, and both times they have taken my recommendation (one was EWSB 2000 and the other was OWA over Maker's...I hope they enjoyed it them!).

The only other time I've really spoken up was when a guy and his girlfriend were talking to the spirits manager about Scotch (and I'm not a Scotch drinker). The guy was looking for a nice gift for his boss, and his boss' usual drink was Glenlivet. The manager seemed to know what he was talking about and was offering some good recommendations, but none of them were Speysiders. Since the younger guy didn't know if his boss liked any other kind of Scotch, I politely stepped in and suggested that he stay with a similar profile rather than get something that his boss might not like. The spirits manager said that was a good point and directed them to some other selections (Speyside), but I didn't stick around to see what they did with my unsolicited advice.

Edited July 12, 2012 by jcg9779

[JPBoston]

Anytime I'm in a restaurant with a bar, and I ask the waitress what they have for bourbon... I get a confused look and a "I'll have to check". More often then not, its some bottom shelf well bourbon and something like Wild Turkey and Maker's Mark... and of course, she wouldn't know to ask if it's WT 81 or 101... let alone Rare Breed or whatever.

This almost always goes for bartenders themselves... "Bourbon? Uhhh... we have Jack Daniels, I know that....". This ignorance is only underlined by the fact that when I go look at the bar for myself, the bourbon bottles are mixed in with Canadian/Scotch/Irish/etc. They don't even TRY!!!

I always hide my annoyance... as I don't want my drinks spat in... but WTH is going on? How do so many restaurants/bars go without this simple knowledge? Why no whiskey lists if you don't want to train your staff? I mean, why wouldn't you print a list of all your alcohol you carry? (at least the 'straight' spirits, I can understand not keeping track of every special flavor-infused vodka that comes out.) Just a simple goddamn printout would suffice.

Sorry for venting... just frustrating.

[jcg9779]

I can understand not keeping track of every special flavor-infused vodka that comes out.

[KYPayne]

A few weeks ago I went up to Kentucky to visit a buddy of mine. He wanted to rent a boat, so we jumped across the river to Evansville, IN, and rented a Pontoon (a 10 seater was all they had. Needless to say we had a lot of room). Anyway, the boat rental joint had a tiki bar that was set out on the river. They had your basic beer selections plus several bottles of rum and whiskey and vodka. They a piece of paper taped to a bottle of Laphroaig 10, which sat in the window, that said "This is very expensive Scotch. $95 a bottle." I'm sure none of the clientele would order scotch, let along Laphroaig by name. They may have fooled some people though. Personally, I love Laphroaig and find it easily drinkable, but I wouldn't order it at a tiki bar on the Ohio.

On another note, my buddy and I had to sign a lot of release forms. We got to the line about no drinking while operating the boat. The owner said, "I don't care if you have some beer, just be responsible about it." My buddy is a teetotaler, so it didn't matter regardless, but still...

[Restaurant man]

Your point about bartenders is really unfortunate as it is true. I would hope that in "nicer" places you would encounter a more knowledgable barkeep but I know from my own experience tat it is still a crapshoot. I will say that a real "expert" on any subject (like troyce on flavored vodka) will surely best 99% of bartenders who may have a broad selection of knowledge over a wide array of products rendering them (jack of all trades master of none). Although I disdain titles like "bar chef" or "mixologist" I do appreciate the enthusiasm for their craft. I just have no respect for a salesman who stands in front of all his product all day and never wonders what makes all those bottles so different

[JPBoston]

Your point about bartenders is really unfortunate as it is true. I would hope that in "nicer" places you would encounter a more knowledgable barkeep but I know from my own experience tat it is still a crapshoot. I will say that a real "expert" on any subject (like troyce on flavored vodka) will surely best 99% of bartenders who may have a broad selection of knowledge over a wide array of products rendering them (jack of all trades master of none). Although I disdain titles like "bar chef" or "mixologist" I do appreciate the enthusiasm for their craft. I just have no respect for a salesman who stands in front of all his product all day and never wonders what makes all those bottles so different

Fully agreed --- your last statement especially rang true with me. I don't how that could happen.... just simple human curiosity coupled with not wanting to look like a fool would take care of that problem, one would imagine. But I guess the lesson is; never underestimate the laziness of our fellow human beings.

[troyce]

Troyce is going to be very mad at you for this statement.

No,No,No just appreciative that the magnitude of the task is recognized.

[callmeox]

I think the simple answer to the ignorant bartender question is that most are beertenders and not actual bartenders.

[SMOWK]

If you're going to blame someone blame the management for hiring a bartender that doesn't know what they're doing.

[JPBoston]

If you're going to blame someone blame the management for hiring a bartender that doesn't know what they're doing.

Well, I'll go one further... and say blame management for not training them along the way as well. Seems like a pretty simple 'learn on the job' kind of assignment to me.

And not to beat a dead horse, but if they don't want to train the employees, then a simple printed list of what spirits they carry would be a swell addition instead.

[OscarV]

I think the simple answer to the ignorant bartender question is that most are beertenders and not actual bartenders.

If you're going to blame someone blame the management for hiring a bartender that doesn't know what they're doing.

Well, I'll go one further... and say blame management for not training them along the way as well. Seems like a pretty simple 'learn on the job' kind of assignment to me.

And not to beat a dead horse, but if they don't want to train the employees, then a simple printed list of what spirits they carry would be a swell addition instead.

Yes it is very odd when everyone is tumputing the return of classic cocktails you still can't get a cocktail made right.

I'll add to Scott's assesment, not only should they be called beertenders but also fruit-flavored-vodka-tenders.

Most off these people think mixing up a Red Bull and Jagermister is a unique and skillfull thing to do.