Widow Jane Kentucky Bourbon

[MauiSon]

I'm not sure how naming the producer of the bourbon would help the Widow Jane brand, especially because they seem to be basing their branding on the concept that it's "all about the water". Which may seem backwards to us, but look at all the advertising messaging from beer producers talking about their special water! :grin:

Scotch and Bourbon producers generally make a big deal about their water sources, too, so that's nothing new and certainly doesn't seem 'backwards'.

[smokinjoe]

Maui, I think Kalessin is referring to the fact that they are promoting the "cutting to proof" with the special water, as being backwards to enthusiasts like us. As enthusiasts, I think, we would be more concerned with how the barrel strength whiskey is before cutting. If this is in fact what K was referring to, I am thinking along those lines as well. If not, I am alone on my island, yet again!

[cowdery]

Hell, 'blowhard' is one one the nicer things I've been called. No loss of lung function here.

As for Widow Jane, this is the typical crap we see all the time. We saw it from High West too until they wised up. Somebody comes out of nowhere with a fully-aged bourbon and, playing on the general ignorance of the public, does everything they can short of outright lying to make people think it's something it's not. Even to the point of saying the whiskey is 'made' with water from this mine (and, I might add, mines are not generally touted for their water quality) when, of course, it is only diluted to proof with that water, whereas the average person thinks 'made' means 'distilled.' It's funny that they actually say it's distilled by them in Brooklyn when their label clearly says 'Kentucky.' Could it actually be a subtle parody?

The photography, by the way, is very nice -- but here are the pretty pictures of the still on which the whiskey was not made, and the pretty pictures of the barrels that may or may not have anything to do with the current product (since bulk whiskey is usually delivered in plastic or stainless steel containers), all labeled with the name of the distillery that didn't make it.

It's just sad when the best defense people can come up with is general incompetence. It's not incompetence, it's a ham-handed effort to deceive, and that's what sticks in my craw and make me, yes, crotchety. I understand that it's awkward to promote yourself as a distiller and simultaneously promote a product you just bought and bottled, but I can't endorse deception as the solution.

Conjecture that a new poster praising an obscure product is a shill is pretty understandable, especially since it happens here all the time. Perfectly innocent non-shills who find themselves so accused usually laugh it off, retroactively make the introductions (there's a whole section for that) and become part of the community. Shills who have been found out typically get their backs up, then disappear.

We've had so many of these overpriced, nothing special non-distiller producer bottlings that we're bored with them. I won't shut up about it. I also refuse to kiss the ass of every ill-mannered newbie who shows up here and I refuse to apologize for it.

Edited November 15, 2012 by cowdery

[RVTsteve]

I find this all relatively interesting. Seems like if there is this much confusion we should go to the source. Not sure if anyone else has but I went ahead and contacted the company for more info. I alerted them to some of the questions/concerns in the thread and invited them to come check it out and provide any info they might have.

[White Dog]

I find this all relatively interesting. Seems like if there is this much confusion we should go to the source. Not sure if anyone else has but I went ahead and contacted the company for more info. I alerted them to some of the questions/concerns in the thread and invited them to come check it out and provide any info they might have.

I like you giving it the old college try, but they'll probably say, "we can't tell you due to a contract." Which also a BS dodge.

[White Dog]

And while you're at it, ask Preston what's in the 23yr.

[RVTsteve]

I know what you mean but I'm all for giving people an opportunity to speak for themselves.

In response to my email :

Thanks Stephen,

Well it's nice to know it's getting out there!

My name is Alex clark, I am the sales director for Cacao Prieto, keepers of the Widow Jane whiskey.

I clearly need to chime in... I have just registered so will be able to soon.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, a bottle of whatever you want awaits you in Red Hook whenever you can make it.

Watch the thread as I attempt to dampen the flames.....

Cheers,

Alex

I guess we'll see.

Edited November 16, 2012 by RVTsteve

[Kalessin]

As an aside, check out the website for Black Dirt distillery (all three pages of it), who are selling Black Dirt Bourbon (???), $35/750ml at www.drinkupny.com

It's not the somewhat unfortunate brand name that gets me, and the price is cheap enough, and they even claim that it's actually distilled in NY state....

Take a look at http://www.blackdirtdistillery.com, all three pages of it once you get past the claim-your-age page. Try to make sense of the one page that isn't mostly Lorem Ipsum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Lorem_ipsum

Finish (and please proofread) your freakin' website!! :grin:

Edited November 16, 2012 by Kalessin

[Kalessin]

Maui, I think Kalessin is referring to the fact that they are promoting the "cutting to proof" with the special water, as being backwards to enthusiasts like us. As enthusiasts, I think, we would be more concerned with how the barrel strength whiskey is before cutting. If this is in fact what K was referring to, I am thinking along those lines as well. If not, I am alone on my island, yet again!

This is exactly what I meant! SB.com means you'll never be truly alone... :icon_pidu:

[cowdery]

I hope they do come here, confess their sins, and promise to sin no more.

Also, the question was asked, have I "even tried it?"

I no doubt have, dozens of times, under one of its many names

Edited November 16, 2012 by cowdery
to get even snarkier.

[Yeti]

Poking around and looking for a first place to post, this seemed as good as any. Over the summer I purchased a bottle of the Widow Jane 5 Year (Label stated Batch #1 - Bottle #200/823 Bottled 6/12/12) from Astorwines.com. Recently opened it with my brother in law who is a real beer connoisseur who also enjoys a dram of whiskey from time to time. We both thought it was rather delightful. I didn't make detailed notes (and left the bottle for him to enjoy), but recall it being bright and crisp, with a smooth finish. Very easy drinking. I think they've recently raised the price on Astor from $35 to $60, and would not recommend it at the new price, but for $35 it was acceptable.

For what it's worth, this is my very first post. As a new subscriber to the Bourbon Country Reader (just got my second edition this week), I hope Mr. Cowdery won't question my motives too severely :-)

[p_elliott]

Poking around and looking for a first place to post, this seemed as good as any. Over the summer I purchased a bottle of the Widow Jane 5 Year (Label stated Batch #1 - Bottle #200/823 Bottled 6/12/12) from Astorwines.com. Recently opened it with my brother in law who is a real beer connoisseur who also enjoys a dram of whiskey from time to time. We both thought it was rather delightful. I didn't make detailed notes (and left the bottle for him to enjoy), but recall it being bright and crisp, with a smooth finish. Very easy drinking. I think they've recently raised the price on Astor from $35 to $60, and would not recommend it at the new price, but for $35 it was acceptable.

For what it's worth, this is my very first post. As a new subscriber to the Bourbon Country Reader (just got my second edition this week), I hope Mr. Cowdery won't question my motives too severely :-)

Go post an introductory post in new to straightbourbon

[Alexinnyc]

Hi,

my name is Alex Clark, I am the sales director for Cacao Prieto distillery in Red Hook Brooklyn

I was alerted to this post by Steve. Thank you Steve!

we started the company 2 years ago. The plan was to make beans to bar chocolate, and rum.

that is exactly what we have done.

we also are distilling whiskeys made with organic non GMO grains and water from the Widow Jane mine in upstate New York.

We have been racking whiskey since we have been legal to do so and are waiting for maturation.

To build the Widow Jane brand we have been sourcing some juice from Kentucky.

the first 1500 bottles we released were a 5 year small batch offering from BT.

they were hand sold by me throughout manhattan and Brooklyn.

the second release is a 7 year single barrel offering.

our labels clearly state Kentucky Bourbon on the front and bottled by (not distilled by) Cacao Prieto distillery on the back.

each bottle is hand numbered and hand labelled.

we use water from the widow Jane mine to cut from cask strength to 91 proof.

we do not chill filter.

I understand that purists may find this approach galling....but we do carefully consider what juice goes in the bottle.

I realize that our website has been poorly edited, I will attempt to clean it up.

it was not a deliberate attempt to mislead, it was thrown up hurriedly and I have been pounding the pavement since.

as for other peoples websites, what they say and do is up to them, our sell sheets are very clear and straightforward.

Our eventual goal is to be self sufficient, but you gotta get there somehow....if anyone has a better plan I am all ears!

I genuinely hope you all get to try our incredible in house offerings as well as the others at some point.

If you are ever in Red Hook, please stop by to say hi and check out the facility.

cheers,

Alex

347 225 0130

[unclebunk]

Hi,

my name is Alex Clark, I am the sales director for Cacao Prieto distillery in Red Hook Brooklyn

I was alerted to this post by Steve. Thank you Steve!

we started the company 2 years ago. The plan was to make beans to bar chocolate, and rum.

that is exactly what we have done.

we also are distilling whiskeys made with organic non GMO grains and water from the Widow Jane mine in upstate New York.

We have been racking whiskey since we have been legal to do so and are waiting for maturation.

To build the Widow Jane brand we have been sourcing some juice from Kentucky.

the first 1500 bottles we released were a 5 year small batch offering from BT.

they were hand sold by me throughout manhattan and Brooklyn.

the second release is a 7 year single barrel offering.

our labels clearly state Kentucky Bourbon on the front and bottled by (not distilled by) Cacao Prieto distillery on the back.

each bottle is hand numbered and hand labelled.

we use water from the widow Jane mine to cut from cask strength to 91 proof.

we do not chill filter.

I understand that purists may find this approach galling....but we do carefully consider what juice goes in the bottle.

I realize that our website has been poorly edited, I will attempt to clean it up.

it was not a deliberate attempt to mislead, it was thrown up hurriedly and I have been pounding the pavement since.

as for other peoples websites, what they say and do is up to them, our sell sheets are very clear and straightforward.

Our eventual goal is to be self sufficient, but you gotta get there somehow....if anyone has a better plan I am all ears!

I genuinely hope you all get to try our incredible in house offerings as well as the others at some point.

If you are ever in Red Hook, please stop by to say hi and check out the facility.

cheers,

Alex

347 225 0130

Thanks so much for the information about your products and good luck with your venture.

[HighInTheMtns]

Can't argue too much with 91 proof, lots of whiskey gets cut to a lower proof than that. I like the choice of 91 over the more common 90. Also glad to hear you're not chill filtering. Doubtful that any of this bottling will make its way out to me but I hope to get to try some of your Brooklyn-distilled product when it is ready.

[wadewood]

Alex,

I searched on TTB COLA website and I see your label approval for Widow Jane Bourbon, which says 5 years old and 100 proof. This does not match the information you posted, which was 91 proof. I also could not find a label approval for the 7 year old. I'm searching using DSP-NY-15044. Do you have another DSP besides that one?

[Kalessin]

I realize that our website has been poorly edited, I will attempt to clean it up.

it was not a deliberate attempt to mislead, it was thrown up hurriedly and I have been pounding the pavement since.

as for other peoples websites, what they say and do is up to them, our sell sheets are very clear and straightforward.

Hello, Alex... and thanks for posting here!

My website criticism wasn't meant to be harsh, but please understand that the Cacao Prieta website and TTB COLA information are nearly the only sources for information about your bourbon for those of us not in the NYC area.

This forum is filled with people who, even though they love great whiskey, might be a bit cynical about the spirits industry and its product, labeling and marketing practices (and I mean both smaller craft and major producers). For my part, I didn't find the website or label deceiving at all, and I don't feel I have a need to know the source distiller of the Kentucky bourbon as long as the liquid in the bottle tastes good and represents a good value to me.

I brought up Black Dirt Distilling's site only as a funny aside; their message to us out on the internet is literally incomprehensible, even though their product is out in some NYC stores. But consider that your company's website is probably the most important source of information to customers who you don't meet personally.

[Kalessin]

Alex,

I searched on TTB COLA website and I see your label approval for Widow Jane Bourbon, which says 5 years old and 100 proof. This does not match the information you posted, which was 91 proof. I also could not find a label approval for the 7 year old. I'm searching using DSP-NY-15044. Do you have another DSP besides that one?

On the TTB website, there's a list of allowable changes to a label without seeking a new label approval, at http://www.ttb.gov/labeling/allowable_revisions.shtml

Scroll down a bit for the list. Line 11 allows for changing the mandatory statement of alcohol content as long as it doesn't change or violate the type designation. Line 14 allows for changing the mandatory age statement, or deleting or changing an optional age statement for distilled spirits labels, as long as it doesn't change or violate the type designation.

I'm not an expert in TTB/COLA issues, and shouldn't be regarded as such, but I think the changes would be within the rules.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Kalessin

[Alexinnyc]

Spot on Kalessin...

[Flyfish]

http://www.blackdirtdistillery.com, all three pages of it once you get past the claim-your-age page. Try to make sense of the one page that isn't mostly Lorem Ipsum.]

Back in the olden days when I was in the business, we called Lorem Ipsum "Greek." It was not Latin. In fact, it wasn't any language at all. It was totally meaningless random letters that were inserted by the graphic designer for the sole purpose of holding space. I had numerous "encounters" with graphic designers who didn't care what the copy (i.e. the words) said as long as they looked good on the page. In spite of the fact that I made my living in advertising, I still resent copy writers who don't care what they say as long as it looks good.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Flyfish

[cowdery]

http://www.blackdirtdistillery.com, all three pages of it once you get past the claim-your-age page. Try to make sense of the one page that isn't mostly Lorem Ipsum.]

Back in the olden days when I was in the business, we called Lorem Ipsum "Greek." It was not Latin. In fact, it wasn't any language at all. It was totally meaningless random letters that were inserted by the graphic designer for the sole purpose of holding space. I had numerous "encounters" with graphic designers who didn't care what the copy (i.e. the words) said as long as they looked good on the page. In spite of the fact that I made my living in advertising, I still resent copy writers who don't care what they say as long as it looks good.

Don't you mean you resent the graphic designers? We copywriters always care what it says. (I'm with you and have experienced the same thing many times.)

[cowdery]

Thank you, Alex. Good response. Although it may not exactly seem that way, we're on your side.

There sure is a lot of BT out there from a company that claims it doesn't sell bulk whiskey. As I've said before, nobody sells bulk whiskey except when they do.

[Phil T]

I have reading this thread, every post of a 5 page thread ..and find it amazing so much space has been devoted to something we don't give a shit about

[Happyhour24x7]

Go post an introductory post in new to straightbourbon

And here I am, wondering when we started requiring, as opposed to just recommending, an introductory post in "new"?

[HighInTheMtns]

And here I am, wondering when we started requiring, as opposed to just recommending, an introductory post in "new"?

Gotta back Paul up on this. He is just recommending here... He's always welcoming new members over in the New to SB forum and has been nothing but friendly to me since I joined the forum not long ago.