The Story of Black Maple Hill

[White Dog]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Bourbon itself, but when someone buys NAS HH(probably) juice from BMH, they're paying profits to both BMH and KBD, which leads to the overly high price of $32.99, or whatever one is paying.

Why not get Fighting Cock for $17.99, or I'll also happily pay the extra Luxco tier for Old Ezra 7yr at $17.99.

But hey, you like it, and think it's worth it, so that's cool. We all have opinions.

[David D]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Bourbon itself, but when someone buys NAS HH(probably) juice from BMH, they're paying profits to both BMH and KBD, which leads to the overly high price of $32.99, or whatever one is paying.

Why not get Fighting Cock for $17.99, or I'll also happily pay the extra Luxco tier for Old Ezra 7yr at $17.99.

But hey, you like it, and think it's worth it, so that's cool. We all have opinions.

That's true. That's why it's good to know where it comes from, hence why I wrote the article. I'm glad we can share opinions here openly.

[cowdery]

Driscoll, like any large retailer in a major market, has a good feel for market trends, even more so for being in always trendy No. California. Some of the other posters here are in the business too and have their own assessments. I appreciate that he told it like it is about BMH, that it's a non-distiller producer (NDP) that won't or can't reveal its sources, and that scarcity and perceived scarcity are driving the market. You can't give BMH much credit for any of this. They are the beneficiary of forces largely outside of their control. Driscoll also does a good job of describing the brand characteristics that make BMH a good candidate to be the next Van Winkle.

The older folks among us have lived through two very different periods. In the pre-boom era, we had tons of good, cheap, glut-era whiskey from numerous NDPs, some better and more ethical than others. We could buy whatever we wanted at will, whenever we wanted, and turn our noses up at the rest. Was that the golden age? Maybe, but it wasn't sustainable. Now whiskey is hot and newbies are flooding the market looking for 'experts' to tell them what is 'the best,' so they can avoid any heavy lifting on their way to connoisseurship. Plenty of self-proclaimed 'experts' have appeared, eager to oblige. They don't try to educate, they can't, they don't know anything. Instead they just pass along recommendations they have heard, like Van Winkle.

Since they need a second act, the search is on for the next Van Winkle. It has to be expensive to be good, and hard to get, the older the better, high proof is good too, and a Van Winkle-like back story doesn't hurt, as it can be boiled down to a few easy-to-remember bullet points. BMH is as good a candidate as any.

And so a fool and his money are soon parted.

In addition to availability problems, the loss of age statements, and higher prices; other unpleasant by-products of the current boom have been flavored whiskeys (honey, cherry, cinnamon), white whiskeys, celebrity whiskeys, and quasi-whiskeys (blended whiskey, spirit whiskey).

On the other side, how great is it that the LDI 95% rye finally saw the light of day, even though it took a creepy outfit like Templeton to do it?

I'm old, and crotchety by nature as you all know, but I know dynamism usually accompanies success. They need each other. So we need to embrace change in general, even if we choose to reject some of the specifics.

[dridge11]

I've only had the 16 year and the regular NAS small batch.

I'm not a big fan of the small batch - too much banana, has nothing to do with the NAS cause I'm a huge OWA fan.

I think the 16 year is really quite delicious and as a result, I have another in the bunker. Probably not worth $150 but at $100-$120 I dig it.

[White Dog]

That's true. That's why it's good to know where it comes from, hence why I wrote the article. I'm glad we can share opinions here openly.

Just read your NAS piece, and I must say that at least on SB.com, your premise rings false. Most of us are rabid fans of OGD, OWA, FR1B and plenty of other NAS bottlings. Just because someone slams a particular NAS sku, doesn't mean they hate on all NAS.

[David D]

Just read your NAS piece, and I must say that at least on SB.com, your premise rings false. Most of us are rabid fans of OGD, OWA, FR1B and plenty of other NAS bottlings. Just because someone slams a particular NAS sku, doesn't mean they hate on all NAS.

I wasn't really refering to SB.com on that point. Mostly, I was refering to emails I get from people who think that brands like Ardbeg Uigeadail, Black Maple Hill, or Kilchoman are rip offs because they charge high prices for young whiskies. I do a lot of purchasing for small tasting groups who have very strong opinions about what they will or won't drink. I was, however, refering to a few SB.com posters calling the piece BS, saying that BMH is relatively easy to get and wondering why anyone would want it anyway. It most definitely is a the hot ticket here in NorCal.

What's funny is that while we've been typing our responses, someone came in and asked for BMH. When we tried to recommend OWA as an alternative (since we're always out of stock on BMH now), he walked out. It was either BMH or nothing. That was my real point. When you said you could buy Fighting Cock instead for less money, it was no different than what I said to the gentleman only minutes ago. "You can get OWA for $20 instead!" No interest, however. "Nothing's better than BMH for the money." Exact words. No joke.

[yountvillewjs]

I can confirm David's experience -- BMH is really popular here in NoCal, I've seen it.

[Trey Manthey]

"Nothing's better than BMH for the money." Exact words. No joke.

I'm calling it. Whiskey of the Year. :pope:

[sutton]

I can confirm David's experience -- BMH is really popular here in NoCal, I've seen it.

That is curious - I've seen it on shelves quite a bit on the East Coast (the NAS small batch) - why do you think it is so popular in NoCal? Was something written about it recently that has so many people looking for it?

[David D]

That is curious - I've seen it on shelves quite a bit on the East Coast (the NAS small batch) - why do you think it is so popular in NoCal? Was something written about it recently that has so many people looking for it?

It's in all the hot bars, who use it for their cocktails. It's a great label and people are used to seeing it when they go out. That excitement has carried over to the retail market big time. It's no more popular than it used to be, it's just that now there's less of it. When that happens people start going crazy

[BourbonJoe]

I have had the 11 y/o, 14 y/o, 16 y/o bourbons and the 18 y/o rye. All were very good. All were very expensive. I still have some bunkered. I don't like the new NAS stuff.

Joe :usflag:

[Trey Manthey]

As David expounds in his latest post:

People buy Black Maple Hill because they like it. They buy it because it's now hard to get. They buy it because some bar in downtown San Francisco uses it for their house cocktails. They buy it because it's cool.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Trey Manthey

[soonami]

...Establishments like this have fed the flame of overnight whiskey connoisseurship more than any marketing plan, and they are popping up all over. On some levels it's great ("Hey, I can get a good Old Fashioned!"), but for people wiping their eyes after awakening from the dream that was the "Whiskey Golden Age", it just seems like there's noobs everywhere sucking up the good juice, making prices jump and supplies dwindle. However, if you don't like a label like BMH, you might take it as a good sign that the trend followers have "lost the scent" and are chasing hype more than quality.

Edited July 17, 2012 by soonami

[David D]

The "problem" with people hyping up a so-so product like BMH is that if these consumers are used to paying $35-40 for an average product, they'll be more than happy to pay $35-40 for Old Weller Antique, EC12, EWSB, 4RSmB...when they eventually try something else or when the tastemakers move onto the next "it" bourbon. It will definitely make the prices jump across the board over time because demand will increase, but there is a 5-10 year lag to get the supply to meet it.

Another thing I've seen this in the craft beer world with lots of hyped, small, limited releases with large price tags ($35-50/750ml or 22oz bottle) prove to breweries that there is a significant market for expensive beers. In general, this increases prices across the board because breweries know they can charge more when, for instance, Three Floyds will sell out 30,000 bottles of stout for $15 and another 3,000 bottles of barrel aged stout for $5 all in one day! And they make people buy a $10 ticket just to be able to buy the beer! Lots of savvy breweries don't charge prices based on cost, but demand and maximizing profits.

Although I love being able to get craft beer almost anywhere I go in the NorthEast, the prices keep rising higher and higher as demand increases and availability has decreased to the point that at almost every store I need to personally know the owners or managers to be put on a secret list for some, once common, seasonals. I hope this is not the case with Bourbon because it would be a shame not to be able to have easy access to the brands I like at a reasonable price

[LongBeachScott]

I have never tried BMH, but I see it on the shelves in the stores I shop in here in SoCal and it doesn't seem to fly off of them.

Still, if it is the hot bourbon elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised. It's a good-looking bottle. It's expensive. It would be unfamiliar (and therefore exotic) to a lot of people. The only thing it needs is some buzz and, WHAMMO, it is exclusive. If it is a big deal in San Francisco or New York, it will probably be flying off the shelves here soon. And I wouldn't be surprised if the people buying it in droves are buying the first bottle of bourbon they have bought since buying bottom shelf stuff in college. I won't resent them for it and if they offer me some while swearing it is the finest bourbon ever made, I will happily try it and form my own conclusions.

[yountvillewjs]

The "problem" with people hyping up a so-so product like BMH is that if these consumers are used to paying $35-40 for an average product, they'll be more than happy to pay $35-40 for Old Weller Antique, EC12, EWSB, 4RSmB...when they eventually try something else or when the tastemakers move onto the next "it" bourbon. It will definitely make the prices jump across the board over time because demand will increase, but there is a 5-10 year lag to get the supply to meet it.

Another thing I've seen this in the craft beer world with lots of hyped, small, limited releases with large price tags ($35-50/750ml or 22oz bottle) prove to breweries that there is a significant market for expensive beers. In general, this increases prices across the board because breweries know they can charge more when, for instance, Three Floyds will sell out 30,000 bottles of stout for $15 and another 3,000 bottles of barrel aged stout for $5 all in one day! And they make people buy a $10 ticket just to be able to buy the beer! Lots of savvy breweries don't charge prices based on cost, but demand and maximizing profits.

Although I love being able to get craft beer almost anywhere I go in the NorthEast, the prices keep rising higher and higher as demand increases and availability has decreased to the point that at almost every store I need to personally know the owners or managers to be put on a secret list for some, once common, seasonals. I hope this is not the case with Bourbon because it would be a shame not to be able to have easy access to the brands I like at a reasonable price

[thezenone]

It's very hard to get here in the Central Valley as well as northern California. Seems to fly off the shelves whenever I do see it somewhere. For around $30 I thought it was average and would much rather spend my money on OWA. If it was closer to $20 I might give it another shot.

[soonami]

Is this any different than any other boom-bust cycle? I've seen this in wine and I have no doubt it is happening here. Taken a look at eBay lately? My guess is that we are probably nearing the peak and by this time next year, things will be very different. Will there now be more bourbon buyers (ie: people that find out there is more to it than nasty ass Beam White?) - yes. But enough to drive prices through the roof, seeing to it that every new release is rarer than hen's teeth - doubtful. The other thing -- the quality of the cheap bourbons in the market is high. Rittenhouse for $15/btl (in some markets) is like stealing. OWA, W12 -- a product that takes up warehouse space for 8-12 years, then is 3-tiered with markups all the way and still only $25? No one wants to see higher prices, but in many cases I think the market is just reaching equilibrium.

I'm sure the admins of SB.com will tell you that membership is constantly growing as is the number unique page views per day.

I don't think we are anywhere near the peak.

There is a trend in Philly now like NYC and SF for more artisanal cocktails using fine spirits, not just the flavored Vodka-tinis of the Sex and City 00's. At cocktail lounges like Farmer's Cabinet or Franklin Mortgage in Philly, but also a newer fine-dining restaurants, bistros, and beer bars lots of really nice whiskeys and cocktails are being pushed. I think craft beer is the best comparable. Even in a city as craft beer crazed as Philly, there is not enough to satisfy people, in the past year probably 8 new small breweries and brewpubs have opened. In almost every bar and restaurant within a 25 mile radius you're likely to find craft beer on tap. Even places like Pizzeria Uno participates in Philly Beer Week!

I'm 27 and I remember when Dogfish Head 60 minute IPA were $7-8 each, so it wasn't that long ago. In Philly, admittedly with crazy state alcohol laws, these 6-packs now run at least $10, but I've seen them as much as $15 and they are still being sold. Whiskey prices will do the same because if the distillers and bottlers see that their products are in demand and retailers are selling them for more, then they'll charge more to the retailer, which will then pass on the price increase to the consumer. Many of the most popular craft breweries like Stone, Dogfish, and Three Floyds have kept increasing prices while pulling out of markets! Let's not even talk about the limited releases that are only released at the brewery where you have to buy lottery tickets, or wait overnight in line to buy. Unlike most of the highly prized bourbons which are distributed, many of the top 100 rated beers on the ratebeer or BeerAdvocate websites are beers that are sold only at the brewery on a special release even or only in one bar in Scandanavia... Imagine if OWA was available only once a year at a ticketed release party at The Party Source, that's how the craft beer game is now

[yountvillewjs]

I'm sure the admins of SB.com will tell you that membership is constantly growing as is the number unique page views per day.

I don't think we are anywhere near the peak.

Only time will tell which one of us is correct. That said, I think we are both in agreement that this is an unsustainable uptrend, one not likely to continue forever.

There is a trend in Philly now like NYC and SF for more artisanal cocktails using fine spirits, not just the flavored Vodka-tinis of the Sex and City 00's. At cocktail lounges like Farmer's Cabinet or Franklin Mortgage in Philly, but also a newer fine-dining restaurants, bistros, and beer bars lots of really nice whiskeys and cocktails are being pushed. I think craft beer is the best comparable. Even in a city as craft beer crazed as Philly, there is not enough to satisfy people, in the past year probably 8 new small breweries and brewpubs have opened. In almost every bar and restaurant within a 25 mile radius you're likely to find craft beer on tap. Even places like Pizzeria Uno participates in Philly Beer Week!

While the growth phase of the curve is similar, I don't think they are that comparable at all. Beer is more socially acceptable, cheaper and lower in alcohol. It also doesn't require additional, hard to get and expensive permits. My wife loves beer & wine -- bourbon is strong, too alcoholic for her. She is a member of a very large part of our society, much larger than those that drink bourbon. And the cocktail craze is terrific, also a trend. And look deeper into the cocktail upswing -- it is a trend built on blending of many inputs, of which bourbon is only a small percentage. By that I mean -- they are cocktails, drinks built with fruit, sweetners, soft drinks, other items to hide the very flavors we bourbon drinkers seek.

Imagine if OWA was available only once a year at a ticketed release party at The Party Source

Then it would be called Pappy Van Winkle.

[Smithford]

overnight whiskey connoisseurship

This is my new favorite expression. I've been watching in silent contempt while this phenomenon takes over my city. Witness here and here.

However, if you don't like a label like BMH, you might take it as a good sign that the trend followers have "lost the scent" and are chasing hype more than quality.

I think this forum is more than capable of throwing them off the scent. We should all secretly agree to stop talking about Weller and start propping up something like Rebel Yell just to see what happens. Mr. Driscoll thinks that this forum doesn't influence sales, but I beg to differ. If a rumor were to start here about one of the K&L Wines locations getting a special early allocation of Pappy this summer, he'd have to report back how many people were in the lineup tomorrow morning. :70358-devil:

[T Comp]

I'm sure the admins of SB.com will tell you that membership is constantly growing as is the number unique page views per day.

I don't think we are anywhere near the peak.

There is a trend in Philly now like NYC and SF for more artisanal cocktails using fine spirits, not just the flavored Vodka-tinis of the Sex and City 00's. At cocktail lounges like Farmer's Cabinet or Franklin Mortgage in Philly, but also a newer fine-dining restaurants, bistros, and beer bars lots of really nice whiskeys and cocktails are being pushed. I think craft beer is the best comparable. Even in a city as craft beer crazed as Philly, there is not enough to satisfy people, in the past year probably 8 new small breweries and brewpubs have opened. In almost every bar and restaurant within a 25 mile radius you're likely to find craft beer on tap. Even places like Pizzeria Uno participates in Philly Beer Week!

I'm 27 and I remember when Dogfish Head 60 minute IPA were $7-8 each, so it wasn't that long ago. In Philly, admittedly with crazy state alcohol laws, these 6-packs now run at least $10, but I've seen them as much as $15 and they are still being sold. Whiskey prices will do the same because if the distillers and bottlers see that their products are in demand and retailers are selling them for more, then they'll charge more to the retailer, which will then pass on the price increase to the consumer. Many of the most popular craft breweries like Stone, Dogfish, and Three Floyds have kept increasing prices while pulling out of markets! Let's not even talk about the limited releases that are only released at the brewery where you have to buy lottery tickets, or wait overnight in line to buy. Unlike most of the highly prized bourbons which are distributed, many of the top 100 rated beers on the ratebeer or BeerAdvocate websites are beers that are sold only at the brewery on a special release even or only in one bar in Scandanavia... Imagine if OWA was available only once a year at a ticketed release party at The Party Source, that's how the craft beer game is now

Only time will tell which one of us is correct. That said, I think we are both in agreement that this is an unsustainable uptrend, one not likely to continue forever.

While the growth phase of the curve is similar, I don't think they are that comparable at all. Beer is more socially acceptable, cheaper and lower in alcohol. It also doesn't require additional, hard to get and expensive permits. My wife loves beer & wine -- bourbon is strong, too alcoholic for her. She is a member of a very large part of our society, much larger than those that drink bourbon. And the cocktail craze is terrific, also a trend. And look deeper into the cocktail upswing -- it is a trend built on blending of many inputs, of which bourbon is only a small percentage. By that I mean -- they are cocktails, drinks built with fruit, sweetners, soft drinks, other items to hide the very flavors we bourbon drinkers seek.

Then it would be called Pappy Van Winkle.

Nice thoughts from both of you. I tend to agree with youtvillewjs that we are near a peak and there will be some fallback due to the "difficult" nature of whiskey in all aspects. Of course some things are here to stay and Van Winkle cult status will be one. Demand outside the US is probably the real wild card as it has been before.

[soonami]

There was a time when beer in America was considered to the cheap drink of the lower class that respectable people might only partake of during ball games or a summer BBQ. Perception of beer has changed overtime and I think this will hold true for Bourbon as well. Most people that have only drunk Bud Light will find Dogfish 60 Minute IPA too bitter, too hoppy, etc. However, it is one of the most popular craft beer brands in America and Dogfish cannot make enough of it to satisfy all of its markets. I don't think Bourbon will reach quite that level, but there is a huge potential market still out there. Specially when people realize, per drink, bourbon at $25 a bottle is a better deal than a $15 6-pack or $8 bomber

[GaryT]

Some of this may be regional. I've passed BMH many times in the Atlanta area because I hadn't tasted it yet (and try to avoid paying more than $30 for something I haven't tasted after buying some rather expensive bottles only to learn they're not in my wheelhouse). Someone posted in another forum about stores having bottles of Handy on the shelves for under $60, when here in Atlanta they're gone shortly after they arrive for more than $70. Scarcity does cause people to pay more (or buy more) of something, as it inflates their perception of the value (and we measure "value" in products as what someone is willing to pay for that product - whether others think it is of greater or lesser quality).

[BFerguson]

I completely agree with you on the regional point, and it might have been me that mentioned the Handy also. Up here, there just isn't the rabid market for many of these products. Don't get me wrong, there are certainly a core group of folks who are keen to these, I see the want requests posted up in my local store for the seasonal hard to get items, but unlike other areas, there are no lottery's, or masses of people waiting in line for the release. And we certainly don't have the cocktail craze either, at least in my town.

I can't even begin to imagine the mass competition some of these areas get with the population they have in the area. It makes me feel fortunate to have the opportunities that I do.

But on the flip side, some things still are out of reach. I'll probably never taste a Bowman or some of the other regional release items.

B

[Restaurant man]

Well, Michael J. Flynn is going to be a Smash, then!!!

Cant find the "Flynn" in stores near me joe so it must be good. Gonna drive to Bama tomorrow and try to fill my trunk. Thanks for the tip!