Small Barrels

[LostBottle]

This is an interesting read: http://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2012/08/buffalo-trace-comes-clean-over-bad-whiskey-batch/

It seems there is no substitute for time. Buffalo Trace, in their never-ending experimentation, has concluded that small barrels do not make good whiskey. While it seems they "age" the product faster, the small barrel results are remarkably inferior to those of their larger counterparts. This does not bode well for the craft distillers that are using small barrels in an effort to get their whiskey on the market sooner.

Edited September 4, 2012 by LostBottle

[GaryT]

Chuck had a recent post on this (mentioning his previous posts on the topic) as well. A few months back, Jason Pyle had a unique twist on this, finding that for young whiskey (which isn't something many bourbon enthusiasts crave) is better aged in smaller barrels. It seems like there may be some optimum time to dump smaller barrels for a NAS whiskey (with some larger/aged barrels in the mix to add more character). Not sure that would be economical (I'd think the smaller barrels would be expensive in terms of the volume you age), but as he states - if time is critical, there might be a place for it.

http://sourmashmanifesto.com/2012/04/22/perspective-the-large-vs-small-barrel-debate/

[tmckenzie]

I would like to see a number of micros that are planning to switch to all 53's. Some people think it is a pretty divided camp. Either you are for small barrels or not. I know of a couple putting up 53's. Be something for ADI to do a poll on, but I doubt they will.

[StraightNoChaser]

I'll just leave my $.02 out of this and let In With Bacchus do the talking with his blog post

http://www.inwithbacchus.com/2012/08/small-barrel-maturation-re-buffalo-trace.html?m=1

Let us be reminded that BT is not the end-all authority on what makes good whiskey.

[luther.r]

What I wonder is: if 53 gallon barrels make better whiskey, is there a larger size barrel that would be even better than 53 gallon? I know some reposado tequilas are aged in giant wooden vats. Has anybody tried larger tanks for bourbon?

[p_elliott]

I'll just leave my $.02 out of this and let In With Bacchus do the talking with his blog post

http://www.inwithbacchus.com/2012/08/small-barrel-maturation-re-buffalo-trace.html?m=1

Let us be reminded that BT is not the end-all authority on what makes good whiskey.

So who is Scott Bacchus what does he knows better than BT and their years of experimenting. Has Scott produced one bottle of bourbon that was worth a darn or any for that matter? Just because a guy has a blog doesn't make him an expert on aging whiskey. BT may not be the end all be all on authority on bourbon but they are in the top 3. I'm not trying to argue with you I don't for one know who this guy is and 2 have never had a whiskey aged in a small barrel that was worth a damn. Just my 2 cents.

Edited September 4, 2012 by p_elliott

[p_elliott]

What I wonder is: if 53 gallon barrels make better whiskey, is there a larger size barrel that would be even better than 53 gallon? I know some reposado tequilas are aged in giant wooden vats. Has anybody tried larger tanks for bourbon?

Some scotch's are aged in cask which are larger than barrels make up your own mind from there :grin:

[cowdery]

It's useful to remember that BT started its experiment in 2006, a time when micro-distilleries were appearing with $40 bottles of young whiskey aged in small barrels and declaring that it was superior to the crap made by the majors. They have tempered those claims in the intervening years. Wood extraction, which can be accelerated, is one aspect of aging, but it is not the whole story. People who think the way forward for micro-distillers lies in making exaggerated claims and attacking the majors are fools, as most observers now acknowledge.

[StraightNoChaser]

So who is Scott Bacchus what does he knows better than BT and their years of experimenting. Has Scott produced one bottle of bourbon that was worth a darn or any for that matter? Just because a guy has a blog doesn't make him an expert on aging whiskey. BT may not be the end all be all on authority on bourbon but they are in the top 3. I'm not trying to argue with you I don't for one know who this guy is and 2 have never had a whiskey aged in a small barrel that was worth a damn. Just my 2 cents.

[OTwhisky]

So who is Scott Bacchus what does he knows better than BT and their years of experimenting. Has Scott produced one bottle of bourbon that was worth a darn or any for that matter? Just because a guy has a blog doesn't make him an expert on aging whiskey. BT may not be the end all be all on authority on bourbon but they are in the top 3. I'm not trying to argue with you I don't for one know who this guy is and 2 have never had a whiskey aged in a small barrel that was worth a damn. Just my 2 cents.

[StraightNoChaser]

Actually, most of our whisky in 60 gallon barrels. I guess that means it will turn out better than BT whisky? Just kidding.

[p_elliott]

"MSc student in Brewing and Distilling Science at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, Scotland."

Good enough for me.

Edited September 5, 2012 by p_elliott

[callmeox]

The proof is in the final product.

Give me a small barrel aged bourbon that tastes like bourbon and I will be swayed. I've yet to taste one that wasn't out of balance one way or the other.

Difficulty: calling it a unique style doesn't excuse the lack of balance

[StraightNoChaser]

Are you kidding me A student your taking his word over men that have degrees in chemistry and have been doing this for years and generations? Sorry that is like taking law advice from a freshman college student.

Edited September 5, 2012 by p_elliott

[jburlowski]

The proof is in the final product.

Give me a small barrel aged bourbon that tastes like bourbon and I will be swayed. I've yet to taste one that wasn't out of balance one way or the other.

Difficulty: calling it a unique style doesn't excuse the lack of balance

[Enoch]

I have wondered if the bourbon taste "greener" aged in small barrels. In my own small experiment the bourbon came out with an almost fresh pine taste. It aged very fast and got dark very fast but because it was ready so fast I think the wood didn't have much time to mature. Older barrels my release things that take years to release. mho

[StraightNoChaser]

I have wondered if the bourbon taste "greener" aged in small barrels. In my own small experiment the bourbon came out with an almost fresh pine taste. It aged very fast and got dark very fast but because it was ready so fast I think the wood didn't have much time to mature. Older barrels my release things that take years to release. mho

I think that has more to do with the kind of wood you're using. If it's lesser yard-aged and kiln dried it will likely impart more "green" flavors into the whiskey. I find this to be especially true of BT whiskey. I get a sappy flavor is most everything they make.

[unclebunk]

Laphroaig's and Ardmore's quarter cask whiskies are fabulous, but I know I'm comparing apples to oranges.

[JB64]

Degrees and experience don't amount to everything. The student was able to find flaws in the method of testing and I tend to agree with his summation of the problem.

Degrees and experience may not amount to everything but in a craft type business like making whiskey, I can't think of anything more important than experience. Scott started his review of the BT report by giving us a review in basic analytic geometry just to end up telling us that surafce area to volume ratio is greater in small barrels compared to larger barrels. I think we all realized that and I believe that is the reason smaller distillers try smaller barrels. Scott then comments on the lack of reported testing procedures and results. I didn't see where he really found any flaws in their testing.

The BT "testing" may be flawed because absolute adherance to the scientific method was not followed but BT did devote a lot of time and resources to this '"experiment". If Scott wants to perform a test on 1500 small barrels of whiskey following the scientific method, I would love to see his findings. But if the results were that there were higher levels of some chemical present in the smaller barrels than in the larger barrels, I guess I would have been just as content with the BT findings that it didn't taste good.

I have only tried a couple of whiskeys that were aged in small barrels and did not care for either one. Like others have said the proof is in the pudding. I don't mean any disrespect for distillers like Chip Tate of Balcones. I like to support small businesses and if I could find a bourbon from one of these manufactuers that I liked and was affordable I would buy it regularly. I haven't sampled any of Balcones product but I would like to give some of them a try.

[Josh]

You can do all the math you want but, in the end, like almost everybody has said, the final test is whether it actually tastes good. I have yet to have a whiskey aged only in small barrels that was as good as macro distilled lower shelf fare like EWB or VOB 90. That includes the stuff I've aged in my own garage.

The attitude of some (but by no means all) of the micro distillers is that the problem is not with the whiskey, it's with us, the whiskey drinkers. They have the math to prove that their whiskey is good, we just need to adjust our palates to recognize that it is good. That seems backwards to me, but what do I know? My master's degree is in theology, not brewing and distilling science.

Edit: Just so nobody accuses me of saying something I'm not, I do NOT include Balcones and Finger Lakes in that group! They're doing it the right way.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Josh

[steeltownbbq]

So bad whiskey never comes out of 53 gallon barrels? I may need to revisit the bottom shelf.

[MyOldKyDram]

At least that bad whiskey costs ten bucks or less.

[callmeox]

So bad whiskey never comes out of 53 gallon barrels? I may need to revisit the bottom shelf.

Nope, nobody said that. There's lots of examples of bad tasting bourbon from a standard 53 gallon barrel.

There are also no shortcuts.

[Josh]

So bad whiskey never comes out of 53 gallon barrels? I may need to revisit the bottom shelf.

At least that bad whiskey costs ten bucks or less.

Nope, nobody said that. There's lots of examples of bad tasting bourbon from a standard 53 gallon barrel.

There are also no shortcuts.

Note how I said VOB and EWB. Not Benchmark or JBW.

[Gillman]

I too can't recall a bourbon from a small barrel that I liked, but all of it was 1-3 years old, and I never liked 36 month bourbon from large barrels either.

I'd like to have tasted that small barrel BT stuff at 3 years, say, maybe I'd have liked it even if they don't. (I liked a 9 year old Makers presented as too old at a Maker's tasting once).

Also, I wonder if the wood used for these small barrels is exactly like the wood used in big ones: is it kilned/seasoned for as long, shaped and charred the same way, made from as good oak?

A datum: barrels used to be 48 gallons capacity. That changed to 53 during and after WW II as a measure to save wood and money which started during the war.:

http://lewbryson.blogspot.ca/2008/12/whys-bourbon-barrel-53-gallons.html

No one seems to have been worried that an increase of capacity of 10% would have damaged the palate. It even seems they would have made the barrels larger had they been able to retrofit the existing warehouses and the structural integrity of the barrels could be maintained (plus ease of rolling), but this wasn't possible. So 53 gallons is the result of some tinkering during the war, not an age-old standard which has always hit the sweet spot.

Does this prove you can make good bourbon using small casks? No, but it inclines me to think it may be possible in the right circumstances, i.e., using well-seasoned wood perhaps with the right char level (not sure what that is), placed in the right section of a warehouse, and of course with appropriate cycling, which again I can't state details of. But the magic solution may well exist, it will take time perhaps to see what it is.

Gary

Edited September 6, 2012 by Gillman