New Thoughts About CEHT

[Bmac]

A rationale came to mind as I stared at the line of BTAC and CEHT on the shelf. I think the CEHT stuff is a way for BT to move unwanted barrels out of the warehouse. It's the only conclusion I think think of. It costs about the same as BTAC and it's no where near the quality. It also comes from the same distillery. It's abundantly clear they aren't carefully selecting this whiskey as they are say, GTS or WLW.

Then add that the Tornado Surviving whiskey was due to exposed barrels caused by an accident. They had to do something with those barrels. It kind of makes sense. Barrels that dont fit any sreamline/established profile get a new bundle under the CEHT label.That is why none of the CEHT line is consistent. It's clever when you think about it from a business standpoint.

I suppose I will now suffer the slings and arrows of everyone else's opposite opinion, but hey, what's life without a little risk

[petrel800]

That's pretty strong considering I could make the case that maybe only the barrel proof fits your conclusion. The tournedos hit in 2006 and then were aged anywhere from 3-6 years longer. The rye is a brand new recipe and will be an annual release. There are now some private selection single barrels on the market. I won't content that EH is anywhere close to the bTAC, but if you can't get your hands on any BTAC, then you might welcome some new "high end" stuff to enjoy your hobby.

As I have heard here multiple times, if your not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

[Bmac]

I hear you. It's mostly about cost for quality. Since I am now funemployed, my expenditure for Bourbon has taken a sudden and dramatic twist. Now I have to consider the cost for the quality. I have BTAC bunkered so I am good to go, but when budgetting new releases, I think it will stay with BTAC. I don't think I will invest in CEHT.

[Rutherford]

I think CEHT products are BT's way of proving to Jim Beam and Woodford Reserve that it is just as capable of severely overcharging for a decent product and using marketing/mystique to try to move it off the shelves as Beam/Woodford are.

BT may have a solid mid-low shelf selection (AA, Eagle Rare, BT, Baby Saz) and ultra high shelf selection (Saz 18, GTS, etc) but they also have a large line of quizzically overpriced bourbons for their quality. Blanton's, CEHT, THH (keeping in mind that 5-6 year high proof Willett Ryes are 3/5 of the price and easier to find), and much of the experimental collection have QPR on par with/worse than the Beam Small Batch collection (given they are apples and oranges in terms of flavor profile).

[GaryT]

When I cracked open my first CEHT (the barrel proof release earlier this year), I wasn't really disappointed - but when I bumped it up against GTS and Bookers, I was surprised to find that I actually liked the Bookers AS well (and perhaps more). I doubt I'll buy it again for the same cost to enjoyment factor (especially since Bookers is not only cheaper but readily available!) I also agree on Blanton's being overpriced (at least for what I get out of it - I don't find it that much better than ETL), although I would disagree on THH (but perhaps because I mostly just see the 4 yr Willett Ryes here, and their proof isn't that high so I didn't find it comparable; I can imagine a higher proof 6 year getting much closer!)

[Bmac]

I do get it, it's the cost that angers me. GTS and WLW are far rarer and far better in quality and it's identically priced. If it came from different distilleries I would say it's competition. Here it's not. Since a new one seems to come out sooner it's appears to me like a business decision to keep Ultra Premiums on the market year round. Which would be great if it was higher quality.

I know...I'm critical and have my own rare view points....but that's make makes it fun

[Dolph Lundgren]

I do get it, it's the cost that angers me. GTS and WLW are far rarer and far better in quality and it's identically priced. If it came from different distilleries I would say it's competition. Here it's not. Since a new one seems to come out sooner it's appears to me like a business decision to keep Ultra Premiums on the market year round. Which would be great if it was higher quality.

I know...I'm critical and have my own rare view points....but that's make makes it fun

[Dolph Lundgren]

I do get it, it's the cost that angers me. GTS and WLW are far rarer and far better in quality and it's identically priced. If it came from different distilleries I would say it's competition. Here it's not. Since a new one seems to come out sooner it's appears to me like a business decision to keep Ultra Premiums on the market year round. Which would be great if it was higher quality.

I know...I'm critical and have my own rare view points....but that's make makes it fun

[Dolph Lundgren]

From my understanding, the CEHT line is meant to be a replication of the old sour mash method Colonel Taylor used to make his bourbon, and that would include the standard bottling, the tornado whiskey, and the barrel proof. The only odd-man-out is the rye. CEHT is different from other Buffalo Trace whiskeys, and it looks like their trying to build a foundation based on the old sour mash method; to me, there seems to be a lot of brand continuity.

As far as quality vs. price, given demand, cost of production, blah blah blah…I feel like the pricing is fair. The argument that the antique line is superior is subjective, and don’t think it’s fair to say “X whiskey is overpriced because Y whiskey is the same price and I like it better.†With that argument, we’d see some of our beloved cheap bottles double in price (I’m looking at you Rittenhouse and Weller). I personally love the current Binny’s Handpicked CEHT right now (more than the ER17, which I also like a lot), and think it is a little underpriced – as Martha Stewart would say, ‘It’s a good thing.â€

The point I’m getting is that there is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes that equates into cost. Further, I don’t think CEHT is a dumping ground for fatherless whiskeys. I think there is a point to the brand and I hope Buffalo Trace keeps adding to the CEHT.

Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Dolph Lundgren
Text only shows up black - sorry

[T Comp]

From my understanding, the CEHT line is meant to be a replication of the old sour mash method Colonel Taylor used to make his bourbon, and that would include the standard bottling, the tornado whiskey, and the barrel proof. The only odd-man-out is the rye. CEHT is different from other Buffalo Trace whiskeys, and it looks like their trying to build a foundation based on the old sour mash method; to me, there seems to be a lot of brand continuity.

...

Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

You are wrong Dolph...this thread is also a rehash of one just started in May too:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?17853-Col-E-H-Taylor-Jr-Going-Forward&highlight=colonel+eh+taylor

I asked the questions about EHT barrel proof, and also learned about the projected single barrel releases, because so many people here seemed to be under some illusions about BT moving toward some historic recipe for EHT, which is clearly not what they are doing.

Sour mash was a very small, experimental one-off, as is white corn.

The bulk of EHT going forward will be standard Buffalo Trace rye-recipe bourbon in various pricey expressions.

"Heirloom Taylor" is not in the cards in any meaningful sense.

[Josh]

As far as quality vs. price, given demand, cost of production, blah blah blah…I feel like the pricing is fair. The argument that the antique line is superior is subjective, and don’t think it’s fair to say “X whiskey is overpriced because Y whiskey is the same price and I like it better.” With that argument, we’d see some of our beloved cheap bottles double in price (I’m looking at you Rittenhouse and Weller). I personally love the current Binny’s Handpicked CEHT right now (more than the ER17, which I also like a lot), and think it is a little underpriced – as Martha Stewart would say, ‘It’s a good thing.”

The point I’m getting is that there is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes that equates into cost. Further, I don’t think CEHT is a dumping ground for fatherless whiskeys. I think there is a point to the brand and I hope Buffalo Trace keeps adding to the CEHT.

Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

That seems perfectly fair to me. Yes it's subjective, but anybody's whiskey opinion is. If someone asks me my opinion, I'll give it to them. I won't lecture them on why they shouldn't ask for it. I think most people are smart enough to know the difference between fact and opinion.

My opinion on Col. E.H. Taylor Sour Mash and Tornado (the two I've had) is that they are good, but I've had retail bottlings of Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare SB that were as good or even slightly better. So I don't think they're worth the price.

[tanstaafl2]

That seems perfectly fair to me. Yes it's subjective, but anybody's whiskey opinion is. If someone asks me my opinion, I'll give it to them. I won't lecture them on why they shouldn't ask for it. I think most people are smart enough to know the difference between fact and opinion.

My opinion on Col. E.H. Taylor Sour Mash and Tornado (the two I've had) is that they are good, but I've had retail bottlings of Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare SB that were as good or even slightly better. So I don't think they're worth the price.

Interesting. I don't think I have ever had a bourbon that was really close in character/taste to the Tornado (which is not to say there isn't one or more out there. My bourbon experience is far from all encompassing.) and to a lesser degree the original Sour Mash. Whether or not they are as good or better than BTAC or even standard BT (although I haven't yet had a bottle of standard BT which I thought was better to me) or ERSB is subjective of course. I liked both of these and a combination of different and good is something I am willing to pay a little more for. Would I be happier at the $50-60 price level? You bet!

But I don't see that happening anytime soon. I am hoping that I have a similar experience with the new CEHT rye but I haven't cracked one yet. Too much new Irish whiskey to drink at the moment!

[Dolph Lundgren]

You are wrong Dolph...this thread is also a rehash of one just started in May too:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?17853-Col-E-H-Taylor-Jr-Going-Forward&highlight=colonel+eh+taylor

Thats good to know. I guess Bmac is right regarding brand continuity then. I thought the sour mash style was the underlying basis for the CEHT line. Since that's not the case, I really don't know the foundation of the CEHT line then. Maybe someone with more knowledge could enlighten us?

Josh - I wish you were right regarding people's ability to distinguish between facts and opinions. I think too often opinion is taken as fact. Just look at the current state of the whiskey market. A celeberty chef promotes a whiskey, people take his opinion as gospel, and the next thing you know...Bam, magazines like Maxim are claiming it is the best whiskey ever. Hello shortage. I think the mistake between fact and opinion is partially to blame for the whiskey feeding frenzies we see these days. Now of course, I'd say that many SBs don't fall into the aforementioned category - they seem to be much more knowledgeable and discerning (which makes this board great). But then again, what i just said was like, my opinion, man.

[White Dog]

I'm with Rutherford. Sazerac is a savvy company that sees the trends going on with Bourbon. Why not create a sexy looking label that people with lots of cash, and little knowledge, will splurge on. It certainly boosts their margins.

(This is not an attack on people who like this product, but rather a knock on what I feel is the motive behind this label. I did like the Sour, but many of the others have left me scratching my head.)

When compared to others in the price category, I think we can state that PHC, FR LE, and much of the Antique line are of higher quality. For a brand new line-up at these prices, CEHT should impress much more than it does. And if they were that good, I think there would be more agreement on this board concerning that.

And while personal taste is subjective, there are agreed upon standards amongst connoisseurs of any subject. For instance, my mother may try PHC Wheated and state that it sucks, but since she does not drink Whiskey, she would be wrong. It may suck for her, but it does not suck as a Whiskey.

[p_elliott]

Thats good to know. I guess Bmac is right regarding brand continuity then. I thought the sour mash style was the underlying basis for the CEHT line. Since that's not the case, I really don't know the foundation of the CEHT line then. Maybe someone with more knowledge could enlighten us?

Josh - I wish you were right regarding people's ability to distinguish between facts and opinions. I think too often opinion is taken as fact. Just look at the current state of the whiskey market. A celeberty chef promotes a whiskey, people take his opinion as gospel, and the next thing you know...Bam, magazines like Maxim are claiming it is the best whiskey ever. Hello shortage. I think the mistake between fact and opinion is partially to blame for the whiskey feeding frenzies we see these days. Now of course, I'd say that many SBs don't fall into the aforementioned category - they seem to be much more knowledgeable and discerning (which makes this board great). But then again, what i just said was like, my opinion, man.

The old style sour mash was just for the first release. Each release is supposed to be an individual release. Except for the rye and the barrel proof which will be annual releases. Thad was a little short which is uncommon for him he's normally a very nice guy. Rehashing old post does get a little old though not your fault.

[Dolph Lundgren]

The old style sour mash was just for the first release. Each release is supposed to be an individual release. Except for the rye and the barrel proof which will be annual releases. Thad was a little short which is uncommon for him he's normally a very nice guy. Rehashing old post does get a little old though not your fault.

No worries. I'm not trying to revive the dead here...just responding (with bad info) to Bmac's initial thoughts. I guess we can put a bullet in this thread.

[Brisko]

You don't necessarily have to take quality into account to say that the CEHTs are overpriced. I don't see how you can price a 10 to 12 year old 100 proof bourbon the same as a 90 proof ER17, not to mention an uncut, unfiltered Stagg at almost the same age. Or how you price a 100 proof NAS rye the same as an 18 year old 90 proof rye. And that's just within their own company. When you compare the Taylors to the Beam small batch collection (on price only, of course) it's still mystifying. Granted, some of these are one-offs, but still. I don't get it.

[michaelturtle1]

I think the marketplace is the perfect judge of a product..In PA I can still get CEHT Tornado and Rye, in BTAC I can get still get Handy. The rest of the BTAC collection sold out within hours of it coming live on the website.. the Tornado has been on their site for at least 9 months probably longer, the rye just got listed a few weeks ago but it is "limited availability" so we shall see how long it stays there

[petrel800]

I think the premise here is backwards, it's not that the CEHT products are overpriced, it's really that BTAC is under priced. That is the reality of the matter. I'm to the point where I wish some of these "ultra premiums" would go up exponentially on price to calm the demand and bring some order back. It takes way too much effort to find BTAC or PVW any more. A nice price hike would run off a lot of the non enthusiasts and would curb some of the outright hoarding of these products.

[Bmac]

I think the premise here is backwards, it's not that the CEHT products are overpriced, it's really that BTAC is under priced. That is the reality of the matter. I'm to the point where I wish some of these "ultra premiums" would go up exponentially on price to calm the demand and bring some order back. It takes way too much effort to find BTAC or PVW any more. A nice price hike would run off a lot of the non enthusiasts and would curb some of the outright hoarding of these products.

[Dolph Lundgren]

It appears the msrp for the next CEHT is being lowered to $39.99 (article via drinkhacker):

http://www.beveragebusiness.com/departments/news.php?nid=1213

[tanstaafl2]

It appears the msrp for the next CEHT is being lowered to $39.99 (article via drinkhacker):

http://www.beveragebusiness.com/departments/news.php?nid=1213

[petrel800]

I am not so sure that would work. What it would do is remove enthusiasts due to high cost. Then certain bourbons become status symbols (look to the ebay market for proof). Your suggestion would be that bourbon follow the Scotch market.

[Bmac]

Exponentially was probably the wrong word, but it wouldn't bother me to see the BTAC offered in 375 ml bottles at say $50-60 a piece. A little more supply at a higher price might make them more available to more of the buying public. It's absurd that you have to get on a list or know a super secret hand shake to get some of this stuff. It's also a little absurd that the pricing is not prohibiting enough to stop people from buying the entire shelf when they see these offerings.

That's not a bad idea really. We know they have like-shaped 350ml bottles from the Experimental Oak stuff. Also, the GTS and WLW go a LONG way with me because I don't pour as much and splash water. So it makes sense to lower the amount sold so that there is more to be had.

BTW, I don't trust lists. I rarely ever get called It's better just to make friends with a General Manager of a store and he/she hooks you up when they come in. As will be the case with me; so i won't be hunting anything this year.

[MyOldKyDram]

And now there's another one, ha. Small batch BiB, although this media release from BT doesn't really give a whole lotta info about it. It does have the decency to cost $40, however.

http://www.buffalotracemediakit.com/pdf/Buffalo%20Trace%20Distillery%20Releases%20Colonel%20E.H.%20Taylor,%20Jr.%20Small%20Batch%20Bourbon%20Whiskey.pdf

Edited October 20, 2012 by MyOldKyDram