Whiskey and Air

[tanstaafl2]

As bourbon and whiskey is discussed there is often discussion of airtime and how some bottles do better with a little time open (and some don't. Saz 18 perhaps which presumably has gotten lots of air sitting around in the tanks).

I looked but air is a tough search term. Has there ever been any discussion on the potential value or aerating whiskey, especially if is just opened for example, as one might do with a red wine?

I know that some feel whiskey does change with time once open due to oxidation, especially for a long time, and use nitrogen in bottles as discussed in this thread but I didn't know if there were times when air was a "good thing"!

So how much effect might it have?

[Young Blacksmith]

It seems to depend on what whiskey it is. OWA for instance is just OK to me freshly opened. But dump half of it out into another bottle, and/or wait a few weeks, and you have something great! I also know a few guys who shake up a bottle after opening, before pouring, and after pouring to agitate and aerate the whiskey.

[Bmac]

I am a HUGE advocate for air time. Some whiskeys only take a few minutes and some whiskeys take MONTHS. Air acts on the whiskey's surface and begins to oxidize it. This oxidation changes the flavor within the whiskey. It's akin to adding water just without cutting it or lowering it's proof.

As previously mentioned OWA is improved fantastically by quite a bit of air time. Weller 12 was the same way for me. Also Lot B. So it seems wheaters really benefit the most. For me here are some of the others that tasted bunk upon opening but blossomed into incredible yumminess: CEHT Barrel Proof, 4R SB LE 2011, Woodford Reserve MC Maple Wood Finish, Willett 7yr, EWSB Vintage 2000, and Old Grandad 86 proof.

It has also been discussed that Rye whiskey does NOT benefit much from air time and in fact has a tendency to wither quite rapidly. This has been discussed about Saz18 in specific.

It would be nice to figure out what is it about wheated bourbons that blossom with air and Rye whiskey that withers with air.

[T Comp]

Call me a heretic or at least a skeptic...or maybe it's my lead tongue and urban air damaged nose...but it (air) and its effect on whiskey in a closed up bottle, is not something I've ever picked up on much, until you do get to oxidation (about 2 years). I've said it before...I'd love to see more blind tasting on the phenomena and remain a doubter till then. What about whiskey/whisky bars with extremely rare pours that can be had for the right money but from a bottle that has been opened for who knows how short or long and varying fill levels?

[LongBeachScott]

I, too, am a believer in air helping out whiskeys in general and wheaters in particular. Fortunately, I haven't had any that needed months. Usually a week or two. I have tried to accelerate the aeration effect by using a Vinturi like people use for wine, but it doesn't seem to help that first glass out of the bottle. Sometimes I just save an empty bottle and pour half a new bottle into the old and let them open up that way.

[STLbourbon]

Another HUGE fan of giving OWA and Weller 12 year some air time. I like to blend them in a half filled bottle, shake it up, and then 3 or more weeks later, and especially after 8 weeks, it's a whole new animal that could easily be sold as one of the premium Weller/VanWinkle variants. SO good. The change is not subtle, and it's entirely for the better. Very interesting that it's suggested that ryes don't benefit like wheaters do. I may have to test that theory here at home. My half drunk bottle of last years Pappy 15 is easily every bit as tasty now as when it was opened last fall. ORVW10/107, same deal.

STLbourbon

[Tico]

Definitely wheaters

ive had mixed experiences with wheaters on day one, some are great and some are flat. Recently popped a bottle of Willett 20yr (SW) that was depressingly flat on day one. A few weeks later it has blossomed into some tremendous stuff.

[fishnbowljoe]

My thoughts on whiskey and air.....

Well, you have to breathe, and you have to drink.

Nuff Ced.

[angler82]

In general I don't notice a huge difference in taste between a freshly opened bottle and one that has been opened for a while.

Wheaters open up a little bit over time as previously mentioned.

Old ryes (Saz 18, Vintage 21, VWFRR, etc) seem to lose a little bit of their rye bite.

Everything else tastes the same over time.

[White Dog]

As many opinions as there are drinkers.

For me, air will affect all types of Whiskey.

Wheaters are helped the most by being opened for longer. The longer they're open, the more decadent they become. Rye-recipe will slightly improve. When it comes to Rye, I try to drink them quickly, as I feel they loose their edge.

But as always, YMMV. The only way for you to know, is to experiment yourself.

[tanstaafl2]

Thanks for the thoughts! Keep 'em coming!

I was particularly interested in the value of using a wine vinturi and it sounds like in at least one case that did not seem to make much difference. I do plan to experiment with that just to see, especially with new bottles of wheaters. Mostly for my own curiosity.

I do tend to have a fair number of oen bottles that can sit for awhile because I like to taste what I have when I buy it. But many of them have only a small amount of air in them as a result. But even trying to take notes it is hard to track for differences over time, especially subtle ones.

[ebo]

My thoughts on whiskey and air.....

Well, you have to breathe, and you have to drink.

Nuff Ced.

:toast:

.............

[cowdery]

This is one of those 'fussy' questions, and people who like that sort of thing will have fun with it, there's nothing wrong with that.

If you like to fuss with things, then by all means fuss. Drinking whiskey is about enjoyment and if fussing enhances your enjoyment, then fuss.

But if you're wondering if aeration is necessary or widely practiced, no and no. Exposure to the air can change how a whiskey tastes to you, so that maybe 10 or 15 minutes in the glass before you take the first drink seems to improve it, but if you let it sit for an hour or two, you probably won't like the result. And if you've ever sampled the dregs from a glass left out the night before, you won't do so again. So if a little air is good, more would be better, is probably poor logic.

[CoMobourbon]

Point of clarification:

Does "air time" mean time exposed directly to the open air? Or, does "air time" mean time after the bottle was opened (but then re-closed)?

If the former, then I tend to agree with Chuck. If the latter, then I am tracking with the majority on the benefits of air time in wheaters.

Edited October 25, 2012 by CoMobourbon

[tanstaafl2]

Point of clarification:

Does "air time" mean time exposed directly to the open air? Or, does "air time" mean time after the bottle was opened (but then re-closed)?

If the former, then I tend to agree with Chuck. If the latter, then I am tracking with the majority on the benefits of air time in wheaters.

To clarify, I suppose I was talking air time in 2 different situations. One was opening a new bottle of something that has already been noted by others to seem to be better after it has been had a little air time, wheaters for example, and asking if something like a venturi used with red wine would make a notable contribution (or does just sitting there for 10-15 minutes provide enough air for example).

The other was the impact on bottles that have been unsealed (but kept closed when not in use), what impact and how quickly does air have an effect on it and whether it is worthwhile to put something like nitrogen on them if they are likely to spend relatively long times on the shelf to minimize loss of flavor. And I suppose at what point might it be worth the time and effort, 3/4 full? Half full? 3/4 empty? Never?

It is not like I have lots of half full bottles of super pricey booze on the shelf but I do tend to have a lot of bottles open (some of which aren't exactly cheap!) and sitting on the shelf for extended periods with varying levels of fullness (although most are closer to full than empty I must confess) and while they may not be terribly expensive in the grand scheme of things they are a considerable investment to me, especially taken as a whole!

Edited October 25, 2012 by tanstaafl2

[cowdery]

I understand air time to mean you open a bottle, pour a drink, then let the drink sit for a few minutes before you take the first sip. This requires either intense will power or very careful planning, but that's how I understand it. I usually notice the air time benefit after my third or fourth sip.

Air in the partially empty bottle is an entirely different matter. As for just opening the bottle to let it breath, that's about as useless with whiskey as it is with wine. The opening allows too little air circulation to have any meaningful effect in the 5 to 15 minutes we're talking about.

[tanstaafl2]

I understand air time to mean you open a bottle, pour a drink, then let the drink sit for a few minutes before you take the first sip. This requires either intense will power or very careful planning, but that's how I understand it. I usually notice the air time benefit after my third or fourth sip.

Air in the partially empty bottle is an entirely different matter. As for just opening the bottle to let it breath, that's about as useless with whiskey as it is with wine. The opening allows too little air circulation to have any meaningful effect in the 5 to 15 minutes we're talking about.

It does indeed take a lot of will power! Since I have very little I suppose it is why I was hoping to perhaps move the process along with something like a venturi.

Sounds like perhaps some things just need to develop in their own time!

[smokinjoe]

Sure, a little air after pouring can be beneficial. But, I draw the line there. This compulsion with some folks' bottles showing epic leaps in drinkability over time as the bottle has been opened, and the continued application of this phenomenom seemingly on every bottle commented on in the past several months...is....well...balderdash. By the way, I thought the same thing with the "excess air" theory that was all the rage of every post for about 1-1/2 years, a couple of years ago. Heck, people were being advised to throw out a bottle because it had oxidized with too much air, if it had been open over 30 days...

We all, I think, try to bring reasoning as to why a bourbon tastes differently from time to time. You want to know the reason? Look in the mirror. We change...a lot. The whiskey, not so much.

[HighInTheMtns]

Sure, a little air after pouring can be beneficial. But, I draw the line there. This compulsion with some folks' bottles showing epic leaps in drinkability over time as the bottle has been opened, and the continued application of this phenomenom seemingly on every bottle commented on in the past several months...is....well...balderdash. By the way, I thought the same thing with the "excess air" theory that was all the rage of every post for about 1-1/2 years, a couple of years ago. Heck, people were being advised to throw out a bottle because it had oxidized with too much air, if it had been open over 30 days...

We all, I think, try to bring reasoning as to why a bourbon tastes differently from time to time. You want to know the reason? Look in the mirror. We change...a lot. The whiskey, not so much.

I just finished a bottle of '08 Saz 18 that had been open since 2009. I can't compare how the last pour tasted to the first pour, because I have no recollection of the first pour. What I do know is that it was very enjoyable to the last pour. It's something I just don't worry about.

I do however think that the belief that the end (last 1/4 or so) of a bottle has too much exposure to air and will oxidize quickly has value as motivation to finish it off and make room for something else!

[jersey12]

Totally agree with Joe that the taster has much more to do how the same whiskey tastes over time. I just recently started having my wife pour a little from each of my four open bottles to taste blind and the results of the same tastings spread out about two weeks were somewhat surprising. Pretty sure that the whiskey was primarily the same over that same period but my palate seems to be constantly evolving.

[T Comp]

Sure, a little air after pouring can be beneficial. But, I draw the line there. This compulsion with some folks' bottles showing epic leaps in drinkability over time as the bottle has been opened, and the continued application of this phenomenom seemingly on every bottle commented on in the past several months...is....well...balderdash. By the way, I thought the same thing with the "excess air" theory that was all the rage of every post for about 1-1/2 years, a couple of years ago. Heck, people were being advised to throw out a bottle because it had oxidized with too much air, if it had been open over 30 days...

We all, I think, try to bring reasoning as to why a bourbon tastes differently from time to time. You want to know the reason? Look in the mirror. We change...a lot. The whiskey, not so much.

I agree with you so much Joe I'll even quote myself from page 1 :cool:. And by closed up bottle, I meant one that has been opened up and poured from, but the cap or cork properly put back into said bottle...which if you've been around mid 20 year olds drinking spirits, doesn't always happen :bigeyes:.

Call me a heretic or at least a skeptic...or maybe it's my lead tongue and urban air damaged nose...but it (air) and its effect on whiskey in a closed up bottle, is not something I've ever picked up on much, until you do get to oxidation (about 2 years). I've said it before...I'd love to see more blind tasting on the phenomena and remain a doubter till then. What about whiskey/whisky bars with extremely rare pours that can be had for the right money but from a bottle that has been opened for who knows how short or long and varying fill levels?

[MyOldKyDram]

Perhaps it's all psychosomatic then. Maybe it's just groupthink. I don't know. And I don't know if it's anything that you could even begin to calculate or quantify. But I can name several whiskies, bourbons, what have you that certainly seem to improve with time. And then there are others that I tend to drink faster because they seem to lose a good quality or three the longer they've been opened. So whatever it is, I guess I'll just continue to err on the side of my perception.

[Bmac]

Whether it's "balderdash", whimsy, imagination, or conspiracy, it is a thing. In fact I ran into this recently with my bottle of CEHT BP. I had just opened and tasted Booker's and it was awesome. So my pallate was ready for CEHT. I cracked it open and pour a dram and I'm sorry, it was complete $#1t. Utter crap. Felt like I had just swilled jalapeno vegitable oil. 15 mins later (the cap was replaced after the first pour) I gave it a second shot. It then tasted like a bourbon with the standard flavors we all have come to love.

So yeah, tasting is believing.

[B.B. Babington]

This is definitely a "your mileage may vary" issue!

For my taste, I STRONGLY agree with Chuck. I use a watch glass over my glass to keep air out. I don't want to lose the congeners which I value. But perhaps another sipper would prefer to lose some of those nasty congeners, after all, they can contribute to hangover.

Another important point is sitting in the bottle. To my taste, a third empty bottle loses flair and a 4/5 empty bottle needs to be finished. Too much air means too much loss of interesting character that set that sip apart from the bottle next to it.

[DaveOfAtl]

I have never been able to detect an actual change in the flavors of a bourbon based on air time. I think some air helps mellow out particularly hot bourbons (OWA comes to mind). Maybe that's why a lot of people give OWA extra air time, either in the bottle or the glass. I also agree that if a 1/3 empty bottle sits long enough, it loses some of its punch. But the actual flavor profile never really changes to me. Now I do think - as Joe mentioned - that our palates change based on a number of things, particularly what we've just eaten. But assuming I haven't just eaten a taco, I've never had a bourbon taste like jalapeños one day and caramel popcorn the next.