Sazerac marketing debacle: happening with any bourbons or only rye?

[BigBoldBully]

"The best explanation for the advertising is simply that it's a very small brand and things like updating the web site are a very low priority."

Do recall however, it is not merely a matter of website neglect. They have taken affirmative steps to continue advertising this as Fleischmann's Straight Rye Whiskey subsequent to the change, including through a rebate campaign and hang-tags that use the old designation in no fewer than 3 places. Could still be an oversight, but it is more than a failure to update the website.

One other thing, that I am hoping not to feel compelled to look into, is the possibility they view the oddball designation of Mash Rye Whiskey (which could actually be interpreted by a reasonable consumer as saying Rye Mash Whiskey given some labeling conventions I have seen) as a way to avoid even the relatively minimal restrictions that would come with extremely similar terminology.

After reading several favorable reviews, I had rushed out to buy my handles of this little local secret. Now, having made this unpleasant little label discovery and seen White Dog's side-by-side appraisal, it does look as though I missed out on what I intended to buy and thought I actually was buying. I concur with those who view these sorts of moves as short-sighted profit plays that will probably cost the companies dearly in the long run.

[TheNovaMan]

That's correct. It was shortly before. Sazerac endorsed the decision and continues to offer distributors both a straight bourbon and blended bourbon expression--but you can't have both.

If I yell at National Wine & Spirits enough, will they change back to the straight expression in MI?

[cowdery]

When it comes to brands like Fleischmann's Rye and Ten High Bourbon (sometimes Blended), we're not the market they care about. The market they care about is the guy who has bought a bottle a week, or two bottles a month, of the brand and has been buying it that regularly for years. That person is not reading labels. That person is taking it home, and mixing it with ginger ale or something, not writing tasting notes, not opining about it on sb.com, just drinking it, day in and day out. That's why brands like that continue to be made, because their drinkers are on auto-pilot. That person doesn't notice a label change, probably doesn't notice a flavor change unless it's really profound, but immediately notices a price increase and will abandon the brand in a heartbeat. That person then finds something else acceptable at an acceptable price and falls back into the pattern, never giving another thought to the former favorite. That's the reality. They're not killing the brand, they're keeping it on life support.

[TheNovaMan]

I was that guy, except I noticed the change when it happened because I sometimes drank it neat or on the rocks. I even considered calling Sazerac/Barton to tell them they might have a bad batch, but at the time it didn't occur to me to check the label.

[VAGentleman]

Hate to drift off subject but people continually calling Jack bad and thinking people only buy it for the marketing really drives me crazy. Its like the beer snob who talks condescendingly to people who are drinking a Bud or Coors, it really doesn't make someone want to try other beers. You may not like it but that doesn't make it bad. It has its place. I love the JDSB and have the Black label on occasion and like it. Others may not like it and thats OK. People saying something is bad and can't believe people drink something only serves to drive people away. Being welcoming and acknowledging everyone has different tastes can help introduce people to other whiskies.

Sorry for the rant and I didn't mean to call you out Compliance as Im sure it was meant as a joke.

[White Dog]

The way we keep losing age statements and proof, I'm fine with keeping people away from Straight Whiskey.

[squire]

White Dog I wish I could get my hands on some as it seems right up my alley.

I agree with Chuck's assessment, we are not the target market. The guy who buys a plastic 1.75 liter of blended whisky or young rye will notice price before anything else.

[unclebunk]

Very interesting thread. Wish I had scored my handle of the "straight" sooner, given White Dog's assessment of the "mash." Such is the life of a whiskey fiend...

[squire]

Should still be some on the shelves for awhile.

[MauiSon]

The way we keep losing age statements and proof, I'm fine with keeping people away from Straight Whiskey.

Really! Let's rally to the defense of the good-to-great mid- and top-shelf selections and let the bottom shelf continue to support our lower-volume favorites. Though I sample the bottom shelf, I don't usually go back to it (although I did bunker a few 4yo OOs and <$10 EWBs).

[squire]

I would start a 'Save the Straight' campaign but lack the energy to follow it through.

[BigBoldBully]

Should still be some on the shelves for awhile.

[squire]

Oh well, it was a thought.

[ohiobourbon]

I like the idea of the "save the straight" campaign. I would even be happy with a "look for the straight" campaign, so that people had a better idea of what they were buying.

With regard to Fleischmann's, Chucks comment that the change is probably to keep the cost down (and save the brand) seems right-on, but my guess it is that the reason the word "straight" was removed does not have as much to do with the age of the whiskey. If I understand the rules correctly, if the whiskey is under 4 years old then the label needs an age statement, regardless whether it is straight or not, so removing the "straight" modifier would not help much, unless they were planning to sell the whiskey under 2-years old and put that age statement on the label (which, it sounds like, some Fleischmann's drinkers might not notice).

But, with the word "straight" removed, the producer is free to add caramel coloring and some flavoring materials (like sherry), and not disclose those additions to the whiskey on the label. Why would they do this? If Sazerac were planning to put their lower-quality rye in the Fleischmann's bottle, so that they could save their better rye for their other higher-priced products, maybe Sazerac believed the coloring or flavoring addition would help cover-up the product change.

[Grain Belt]

Hate to drift off subject but people continually calling Jack bad and thinking people only buy it for the marketing really drives me crazy. Its like the beer snob who talks condescendingly to people who are drinking a Bud or Coors, it really doesn't make someone want to try other beers. You may not like it but that doesn't make it bad. It has its place. I love the JDSB and have the Black label on occasion and like it. Others may not like it and thats OK. People saying something is bad and can't believe people drink something only serves to drive people away. Being welcoming and acknowledging everyone has different tastes can help introduce people to other whiskies.

This is a great post VAGentleman. I am also a beer enthusiast and try many kinds but still respect some of the old tried and trues. I have friends that are always onto "the next big thing" with micro-brews. I too like to taste different kinds but I always keep my staple American lager Grain Belt Premium on hand. When I reach for one the beer snobs say something like "my grandpa used to drink that swill." It's like they only like a beer if it is "underground" and then when too many people like it they stop liking it because it is not "cool" anymore. I have seen this with music too. "I liked that band until they got too big." My question always is, "Is it a good product (insert beer, wine, booze, food, music, movie etc.) and do I like it or not?" I always have a bottle of Jack and Jim on hand. Also when I go out to a concert with not a lot of whiskey choices I know I can order a Jack or Jim on the rocks and enjoy myself. I can't imagine it would go over very well if I go see one of my favorite bands at a cool venue and then have a spastic fit because they don't have a quadruple oaked experimental bourbon waiting for me. I don't think I'm a hypocrite to be writing this with two bottles of Stagg sitting in my basement. I really think all bourbons are good. Some are just better than others.

[callmeox]

Please keep on topic. It is easy to open a new thread if you wish to discuss something else.

[cowdery]

I like the idea of the "save the straight" campaign. I would even be happy with a "look for the straight" campaign, so that people had a better idea of what they were buying.

With regard to Fleischmann's, Chucks comment that the change is probably to keep the cost down (and save the brand) seems right-on, but my guess it is that the reason the word "straight" was removed does not have as much to do with the age of the whiskey. If I understand the rules correctly, if the whiskey is under 4 years old then the label needs an age statement, regardless whether it is straight or not, so removing the "straight" modifier would not help much, unless they were planning to sell the whiskey under 2-years old and put that age statement on the label (which, it sounds like, some Fleischmann's drinkers might not notice).

But, with the word "straight" removed, the producer is free to add caramel coloring and some flavoring materials (like sherry), and not disclose those additions to the whiskey on the label. Why would they do this? If Sazerac were planning to put their lower-quality rye in the Fleischmann's bottle, so that they could save their better rye for their other higher-priced products, maybe Sazerac believed the coloring or flavoring addition would help cover-up the product change.

[squire]

Who knows Chuck, Sazerac has other ryes, Canadians too for that matter.

[HighInTheMtns]

Who knows Chuck, Sazerac has other ryes, Canadians too for that matter.

Squire, maybe they're saving up the Barton rye to give you your dream bottle from that other thread.

[squire]

If only that were so.

[Rutherford]

My guess is that they made the decision to stop producing rye 3-4 years ago at Barton, probably because it was their only rye and only sold in 1 market at low prices (and accordingly low margins)

When the stopped production manifested itself in a discontinuation of the brand, they would have had very low stocks of sufficiently old rye, and probably had to scrape the brand back with BT rye, sourced rye, underaged rye, etc.

[jburlowski]

My take on it is a little different:

Barton was producing a 100% rye that was almost ready for market when BT acquired them. I think those stocks will be used in the ongoing CEHT rye bottlings.

The recent change in the Fleischman brand is simply BT's way of squeezing some more profit out of a small niche brand.

[squire]

To rye or not to rye, that is the question.

[cowdery]

I don't think people grasp how small Fleischmann's is, yet in that small market they must sell a lot of it to justify making it. Unlike a small bourbon brand, which is just a matter of slapping a label on a standard bottle, they have to actually make this stuff.

Of course, before Sazerac bought them, Barton was active in the contract distilling and bulk whiskey markets. Some of the High West ryes were Barton. Yet Fleischmann's has long been a 36-month whiskey. In the whiskey business, that's practically just-in-time manufacturing, being able to sell something three years after it's distilled. The fact that they discontinued then brought it back shows how borderline it is.

About the smallest batch a distillery can make is the contents of one fermenter, but the start-up and shut-down for one fermenter is the same as a whole day's production, so one day's production seems to be the smallest practical unit. Even today, with rye production up, a distillery like BT might do three or four days of rye in the spring and three or four in the fall, but back in the doldrums it was one day in the spring and one day in the fall. I imagine Barton has been doing that, or maybe just one day for the whole year, and that has been enough for Fleischmann's, for their blends, and for contract/bulk sales.

When BT bought Barton they were shut down for rather a long stretch, about 18 months, because Sazerac felt they had been over-producing. When the rye ran out because of that gap, that may have been when they discontinued it. At some point in there they decided to make it after all, and probably went right back to what they had been doing, production-wise.

I don't have the sense that Sazerac is doing much if any robbing of Peter to pay Paul, that is making BT brands with Barton juice and vice versa. That would be inefficient. That's not to say they wouldn't, but there is no reason to assume they have and several good reasons to imagine they haven't. BT and maybe both distilleries are sending product to Owensboro for aging and bottling. BT may also be using some of Barton's warehouses, but there's no good reason to send Barton juice to Frankfort. Alternatively, they might have decided to make rye only at BT and Fleischmann's is or will be BT juice, but I think it's just as likely they left things as they were.

Another fact that some may not know is that Fleischmann's Rye itself was nothing special. It was decent and cheap, and a charming novelty due to its extremely limited distribution. There's a raw pleasure in a well-made young rye but that's all it ever was. I'm quite sure nobody was champing at the bit to slip some of it into T. H. Handy.

Products like Fleischmann's Rye are what is known affectionately in the industry as 'cats and dogs.' I don't know the derivation, but it means brands, usually on the bottom shelf, that have a loyal customer base for some unknown reason, and sell their 10 or 20,000 cases a year without anybody having to work very hard. Sazerac has a lot of cats and dogs, and acquired a bunch more when it bought Barton. It's a low margin business so 'squeezing profit out of it' is probably the right terminology, because there is so little profit to be had.

That's Sazerac's business, to operate in as many niches as possible and extract a respectable profit from each, without investing very much in things like brand building.

Edited March 15, 2013 by cowdery

[Bourserker]

I am bummed by this news. I like rye, and I go to WI once a year to visit family. I was going to pick up a couple bottles of this stuff on my trip this year, but based on White Dog's comments I think I'll pass unless I happen across a stray bottle that has "Straight" on the label.