The allure of value bourbons: quality, quantity or both?

[DBM]

I am (still) intrigued by a lot of the conversation and regard for low cost bourbon. OGD 86/BiB/114, FC103, EWB, AAA, OF Signature, VOB and others. There is much less conversation for labels like Blanton's, RHF, Noah's Mill, Booker's, Bulleit and others which are generally double or even triple the price.

Is the interest in lower cost products primarily based on price, or do you find these bourbons simply superior to their significantly more expensive siblings? Put differently, would you still prefer OGD BiB over RHF if they were the same price?

My personal interest in asking is because I have very little resistance to buying the more expensive products, mainly because I don't drink a large quantity of whisky overall. I have to share it with my wine and beer habits. I really don't care much about the price of a dozen or so regularly open bottles because it might take me six months or more to finish them, so my overall cost to have them readily available is still quite low. But if I was emptying a bottle a week (or more) I could see where being more frugal would be necessary, even if it meant avoiding my "favorites" to achieve more quantity.

Do the OGDs and VOBs of the bourbon world get your attention for their outright superiority or their bang-for-the-buck?

[MauiSon]

Both. Neither. One simply cannot generalize, each and every comparison stands on individualized merits. Since price is of little concern to you, buy 'em all (high and low priced favorites) and decide fer yerself. The value lies in self-determination alone.

[CoMobourbon]

The quality OR quantity set-up does not do the topic justice; people discuss them because they are of surprisingly or disproportionately high quality, but not because they allow you to drink higher quantities. In other words, yes, people talk about them so much because of their value, but crucially, people don't talk about them as a compromise of quality for quantity. The general consensus on, say, OGD114 or OWA, is that it is either every bit as good or almost as good as these higher priced brands at a staggeringly lower cost. In many cases, people get specific and say 'X whiskey is technically just Y whiskey (except for one factor, like a few years of age or something) under a different brand at double the cost, so I will always get Y whiskey '; Rock Hill Farms and Elmer T. Lee are a pretty good example of such a pairing.

In short, we talk about value brands not so much because of their bang-for-buck value but rather because they are a secret, and references to them indicate insider knowledge that defines discourse in hobbyist forums like this one.

More specifically, we talk about the value brands mostly to show, confirm, and refine the insider knowledge implied by identifying high quality and low cost products - not so much to cautiously manage quality against quantity in order to balance a budget. I mean, people practice the quality/quantity/budget management described above, but that clearly isn't the reason that we like to talk about the value brands so much. On this site, we want to discuss specific tricks and idiosyncrasies of the bourbon world that the general public wouldn't know. It gives us satisfaction that we know that Average Schmuck Shopper probably assumes that RHF is twice the quality of ETL just because of the price tag: 'but I know better!' Even more importantly, value bourbons drive hobbyist discussions because showing one's knowledge of them shows that one has real insider knowledge and therefore belongs on hobbyist forums in the first place. Even if you have the money to blow on tons and tons of top shelf liquor, it makes you look bad to not also make references to the low cost / high quality bottles you bring home - because those purchases show knowledge that the ignorant consumer would not have. (That's largely why you'll find that many of the same people with obscene "Show Us Your Stash" posts are quick to emphasize their love of the value brands also - to prove that they are still one of us and not some rich ignorant yuppie or hipster who blindly assumes that the higher price tag and rarity denotes higher quality.)

A long while back, in one of the "New to Straightbourbon" threads, a new poster who introduced herself with a categorical statement: 'I always buy top shelf' or 'I never stoop to buy value brands' or something like that. (I wish I could remember either the name of the poster or the thread title; I think it has long been locked.) Needless to say, she got passive-aggressively criticized pretty good on here. Not only did she come off sounding a little arrogant (her good intentions notwithstanding, I'm sure), but her blanket no-value statement put into question whether or not she really knew the tricks of the bourbon world and therefore belonged in this community at all. That's what I'm talking about.

Edited April 2, 2013 by CoMobourbon

[DBM]

I can understand why some threads encourage the "don't ask us, make your own opinions" responses, but I dont understand what makes you think that I haven't. I tried to word my message to specifically avoid that response, but will accept that I failed. I want others thoughts on how price, quality and quantity interact with each other.

You have to admit that it's not a typical environment. You will not find wine collectors discussing the merits of their Lafites and Margauxs while also singing the praise of $4.99 case buys from the corner market.

If it helps lower the defenses a little, I am thoroughly enjoying a bottle of $14.99 FC. I didn't say I was a snob, I just stated that I am not put off by the higher prices as others might be, and ask why more attention is paid to the lower cost labels in general.

Edited April 2, 2013 by DBM

[CoMobourbon]

To be clear, I think that it really is true that value is important, and that in the bourbon world there are whiskeys that are of the same or marginally lower quality for a much, much lower price. And for people who truly have to follow a budget (I won't get too embarrassingly specific, but I'll say that I'm on a sub-$15 grad student stipend for the year to keep my wife and myself afloat, for example), that value is actually / inherently important and worth discussing on its own merit.

But that's not really why people - especially those either wealthy or irresponsible folks with high or non-existent bourbon budgets, who tend to dominate the post counts around here - like to talk about value bourbons. Again, they discuss value to show and then elaborate on knowledge, not so much because they have to.

Edited April 2, 2013 by CoMobourbon

[CoMobourbon]

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?17401-Top-Shelf-Chick&highlight=top+shelf

Here's the link to the thread I mentioned earlier about the self-avowed "only top shelf" SBer. Much more recent than I remember! Whoops!

[WsmataU]

Any time I feel bad about over-spending on bourbon, I just take a stroll down the scotch aisle and immediately feel better. I think part of the reason the hobby has really taken off over the past decade is because people began to realize the high quality whiskeys that are available here Stateside. Comparing the "value" brands to the premiums is just taking it the next step further. It is the same story that wine connoisseurs tell about Napa vs imported bottlings.

For me, the first step was identifying what I really liked as far as bourbon goes. Then I built my bunker. Now I like to find "Value" pours that keep my bunker in tact, for special occassions. Not many of us can afford to drink Pappy as a regular pour since the prices skyrocketed.

[justataste]

More specifically, we talk about the value brands mostly to show, confirm, and refine the insider knowledge implied by identifying high quality and low cost products - not so much to cautiously manage quality against quantity in order to balance a budget. I mean, people practice the quality/quantity/budget management described above, but that clearly isn't the reason that we like to talk about the value brands so much. On this site, we want to discuss specific tricks and idiosyncrasies of the bourbon world that the general public wouldn't know. It gives us satisfaction that we know that Average Schmuck Shopper probably assumes that RHF is twice the quality of ETL just because of the price tag: 'but I know better!' Even more importantly, value bourbons drive hobbyist discussions because showing one's knowledge of them shows that one has real insider knowledge and therefore belongs on hobbyist forums in the first place.

CoMobourbon........

I think you just accurately described the reason for every forum on the internet. Places to show off our superior "knowledge and/or thinking" about any subject from bourbon to guitars to photography to art and on and on.

Well done!!!

[ebo]

I'll just be blunt and say it.......... I buy value bourbon because I can't afford to buy $35 and higher whisky on a regular basis. I moved to bourbon because Scotch is so pricey. I'm glad I did because I never knew what I was missing. Having said that, I still buy higher priced (supposedly higher quality) whiskey. I just don't buy it as often as I used to. I also really do like OGD BiB, EWB, WT 101, BT, etc........

[Flyfish]

When I was in grad school in the late '60s and early '70s I drank Johnny Walker Red, Jim Beam White, and Jack Daniels because I had heard of them, my friends had heard of them so I could serve them, and I could afford them. When I finally started making some money, I splurged on Chivas Regal and Crown Royal--because I had heard of them and wanted people to know I was moving on up. Gradually I discovered that the correlation between price and quality was tenuous at best.

Today the Big Three in my house are AAA, VOB, and OWA. I stock up on the family size jugs whenever in KY because you can't get any of them in OH. I can "afford" Blanton's--and currently have three bottles--but whenever I spring for something over $40 I end up asking myself if I honestly enjoy it two or three times as much as the Big Three. There are days when I do! On a given day, high end bourbon is worth every penny. But those days are relatively rare. I'd like to think that conspicuous consumption is a thing of the past--but in many ways I'm just as shallow as I ever was. I never feel either cheap or foolish, though, for enjoying a pour of EC12 or BT. Speaking of which, BT sounds especially good today.

[Brisko]

Blind tastings can be eye-opening (sorry!) when thinking about these things.

[weller_tex]

I genuinely think OGD 114, VOB 86 proof, and Weller 12 are very, very good. I'd pay a lot more than $13 for VOB, and would certainly pay more for Weller 12 and OGD 114..but I am glad I don't have to. I think VOB 86 proof is the best sub 90 proof whiskey out there.

[MauiSon]

I can understand why some threads encourage the "don't ask us, make your own opinions" responses, but I dont understand what makes you think that I haven't. I tried to word my message to specifically avoid that response, but will accept that I failed. I want others thoughts on how price, quality and quantity interact with each other.

You have to admit that it's not a typical environment. You will not find wine collectors discussing the merits of their Lafites and Margauxs while also singing the praise of $4.99 case buys from the corner market.

If it helps lower the defenses a little, I am thoroughly enjoying a bottle of $14.99 FC. I didn't say I was a snob, I just stated that I am not put off by the higher prices as others might be, and ask why more attention is paid to the lower cost labels in general.

Straw man - the answer is clear, if you've read the discussions they clearly state that in the opinions of some the value-bourbons are just as good as much higher priced bourbons. Either you simply don't believe what these people have said or you believe there's something more to say about it. For me, I believe the question has been answered over and over and over and over again. I can see if you want to discuss specific pairings, but discussing the general subject is akin to tweedling one's thumbs.

Edited April 2, 2013 by MauiSon

[WAINWRIGHT]

Blind tastings can be eye-opening (sorry!) when thinking about these things.

This does bring up a great point and I've actually had people angered for this very reason.A fun experiment is to buy several things of similar proof and mash bill of different price ranges and put it to the test,then and only then will you have concrete evidence of what you like and why.The cost on some of those bottles tasted will show you that price doesn't always reign supreme.

[smknjoe]

Why did they get mad? Can you give us an example?

[GaryT]

This does bring up a great point and I've actually had people angered for this very reason.A fun experiment is to buy several things of similar proof and mash bill of different price ranges and put it to the test,then and only then will you have concrete evidence of what you like and why.The cost on some of those bottles tasted will show you that price doesn't always reign supreme.

I couldn't agree more - and it isn't just the price but I've found that I had pre-conceived notions based on what I've read. Great example for me was WT101 - there is a lot of chatter about how WT is only a shadow of what it was, how it has gone downhill, etc. All of this lead me to expect disappointment from WT101 - but when I did a blind tasting I was surprised to find that I really enjoyed it! And it isn't overly expensive! I honestly think had I known what was in the glass, my expectations would have impacted my assessment, and I would have lost out on discovering that I enjoy a reasonable, and widely available, bourbon.

[WAINWRIGHT]

Why did they get mad? Can you give us an example?

Preconception,myself included can greatly influence what's truly in the glass just as Gary said.

[black mamba]

I think with bourbon such comparisons must be made on a brand by brand basis. My favorite bourbon for the money is HH Old Style White Label BIB. When I am somewhere that it's available, I stock up, because it is not available where I live. EC12 is the same juice, but older. I like older whiskies, and even though EC12 is double the price of HHW BIB, it's still very affordable at $22, so I'm a frequent buyer.

The RHF to ETL is another good comparison. I prefer RHF, but not $20 worth, so I rarely buy it over the ETL, but every 4-6 times I do. I'm grateful that I'm old enough to have tried all the Pappys and all the BTACs when they were more affordable, but no longer am willing to put in the time and effort and money to pursue them. I enjoy vatting different whiskies to come up with a given flavor I'm looking for, and can usually get very, very close to some $40+ bottles for half the money.

As with most things, to get something appreciably better (or older, as in my case of liking aged bourbon), you have to spend a lot more. Sometimes it's worth it, but if I drank expensive bourbon all the time, it would lose some of it's "specialness."

[TheNovaMan]

For me, it's simple: I don't like spending money, but I like drinking tasty bourbon.

[Alden]

I can get much better domestically produced whiskey for the same price I was paying for the cheaper and weaker flavored scotches I was usually forced to buy, due to my lack of funds.

Most single malt Scotch is WAY overpriced; I did not really know that before I started drinking bourbon.

Now, I know.

[shoshani]

It's all individual, really. Personally, I don't like spending over $20-25 for an everyday pour, and I can get a lot of not just decent but really good bourbon and rye in that price range and under - even at 100 proof or better.

[HighInTheMtns]

Had the OP joined the site in October rather than February, the question might be whether we talk about anything besides one particular premium brand. Just saying.

[DBM]

It appears I over-analyzed my original post that derailed the mindset of those who responded. I was really just curious how much the praise for lower cost bourbons is influenced by the price.

It sounds like the majority opinion is that bourbon (from the big distilleries) generally fits within a pretty narrow quality scale (when comparing similar known attributes such as age and mashbill), but a broad price range. The attention is given to the (better) lower cost bourbon because it's 90% of the experience at a fraction of the price of the "100% experience", in quotes because I know that's subjective. Fair?

[squire]

I favor rye recipe Bourbon generally and Old Grand Dad specifically, which I would continue to buy if it costs more or less.

[Young Blacksmith]

For me the allure of the VOB's, Tom Moore BIB, and OGD's are pure superiority. I prefer their taste over the tastes of Bookers, Noah's Mill, etc. Like Squire, I like the heavy rye recipe bourbons, and OGD and OF have the taste I enjoy.

A higher price product I love is 4 Roses single barrel. I drink more of that than Old Forester, but I enjoy them both. I will admit that there is a certain PQR (Price to Quality Ratio) that has to be met for me to stock something regularly, but when they meet for my palate and wallet, I will willingly purchase them.

So then we get to your question: would you still prefer OGD BiB over RHF if they were the same price? Yes. Again, taste is subjective, and my taste says OGD BIB.

Hope that helps some.