The allure of value bourbons: quality, quantity or both?

[bllygthrd]

The attention is given to the (better) lower cost bourbon because it's 90% of the experience at a fraction of the price of the "100% experience", in quotes because I know that's subjective. Fair?

Yes, I enjoy getting 70-80% of the experience at 20-30% of the cost ... Also, being in WV, my choices are limited, so I hate to swill my harder to obtain higher priced finds.

[CoMobourbon]

It appears I over-analyzed my original post that derailed the mindset of those who responded. I was really just curious how much the praise for lower cost bourbons is influenced by the price.

Actually, I would argue that the OP question was overly simplistic, not overly analytical. No offense, really, but the problem wasn't that you were over-analytical so much as it was that you asked the wrong (overly simplistic question) question.

It sounds like the majority opinion is that bourbon (from the big distilleries) generally fits within a pretty narrow quality scale (when comparing similar known attributes such as age and mashbill), but a broad price range. The attention is given to the (better) lower cost bourbon because it's 90% of the experience at a fraction of the price of the "100% experience", in quotes because I know that's subjective. Fair?

Yes and no.

Yes, good value bourbon is virtually as good as top shelf stuff for much less money. Sometimes value bourbon is every bit as good as top-shelf but is in some way different, and sometimes it is every bit as good and almost identical, but yeah, generally, it is almost as good at a fraction of the price. If that is what you were looking for, than that is the answer that I agree with. (IMHO and all of that.)

But no, that is not why value bourbons get attention / get talked about on bourbon hobbyist forums like this one. That is another question altogether - and one with an entirely different answer. I offered my response to that question at length earlier. (In short, discussion of value bourbon involves insider knowledge, which is both the core content of and the participation criteria for hobbyist forums like this one.) If you didn't really intend to ask that question or hear the answer to it, that's understandable. But that is the question you asked.

Edited April 4, 2013 by CoMobourbon

[CoMobourbon]

"100% experience", in quotes because I know that's subjective. Fair?

Yeah, that is the one small frustrating thing I have found about this site. Out of misguided politeness, fear of embarrassment, or single-minded devotion to the try-it-yourself-orthodoxy, people - often the most knowledgeable and insightful people - will sometimes refuse to really answer any question that requires them to take a stand or express an opinion. The all-taste-is-subjective orthodoxy is much better than the alternative, but it has become a knee jerk reaction that limits potentially better discussions. Rather than hide behind that subjectivity tenet, we should use it as a starting point to build more ideas and opinions about bourbon.

[Flyfish]

Like the Squire, I believe that a lot can be learned from tasting blind. My wife and I like to play Stump the Chump. One of us will pour two or three bourbons in Glencairns out of sight of the other. Even when they are bourbons we have been drinking regularly for years, it is surprising how often our "sophisticated palates" leave us feeling like chumps. And no fair pitting a wheater against a high rye like OGD 114 or a barrel strength against a 90 proofer. We also enjoy vertical tasting blind; e.g., three or so of the EWSB to see just how much difference we can note from vintage to vintage. Or, vertically within a bourbon family; e.g., AAA, BT, ETL, and ER or Blanton's. Or the ever popular Kirkland's, KC, and Baker's tasteoff.

It do have a way of keeping you humble.

[SMOWK]

It's much more simple than a paragraph. Walk into store, buy bourbon. If you like it, buy more. If you can't afford it, then it's not worth it unless someone else is paying.

[PaulO]

The way I think of it is like a bell shaped curve. Many distilleries have their low priced 80 proof "well" whiskey. Then, if you spend just a few bucks more, and get a little more proof, and or age, the quality goes up dramatically. At some point it becomes much more esoteric.

[loki993]

Any time I feel bad about over-spending on bourbon, I just take a stroll down the scotch aisle and immediately feel better.

I feel the same way, I look at a bottle of 40 dollar bourbon and think well at the low end a decent bottle of scotch is around 70. I started with scotch and then moved to bourbon. I prefer the taste and the price.

As for the bargains.....well everyone loves a good deal and no matter what people say for 90 percent of people price is a factor to consider. So if there is good stuff and its cheap well that makes it even better Now I sit here wondering why I haven't gotten a bottle of AAA.

[squire]

I can go on at length about my preferences but I cannot tell anyone else what they will like.

[bllygthrd]

It's much more simple than a paragraph. Walk into store, buy bourbon. If you like it, buy more. If you can't afford it, then it's not worth it unless someone else is paying.

Pretty much covers everything I got out of my graduate micro-economics class at the U of R.

[CoMobourbon]

Yeah, that is the one small frustrating thing I have found about this site. Out of misguided politeness, fear of embarrassment, or single-minded devotion to the try-it-yourself-orthodoxy, people - often the most knowledgeable and insightful people - will sometimes refuse to really answer any question that requires them to take a stand or express an opinion. The all-taste-is-subjective orthodoxy is much better than the alternative, but it has become a knee jerk reaction that limits potentially better discussions. Rather than hide behind that subjectivity tenet, we should use it as a starting point to build more ideas and opinions about bourbon.

It's much more simple than a paragraph. Walk into store, buy bourbon. If you like it, buy more. If you can't afford it, then it's not worth it unless someone else is paying.

Case in point. (in so far as it is possible to ever ever say that)

[Vadertime]

I enjoy vatting different whiskies to come up with a given flavor I'm looking for, and can usually get very, very close to some $40+ bottles for half the money.

Please start a thread on this, Simulacrum Bourbon. I am most interested!

[Vadertime]

A few things:

1. One of the reasons I am particularly interested in HQ bottom shelf bourbons is that I hate corked bourbons. I have had several experiences with aged higher end bourbons that have been ruined by cork taste. I literally poured $50 worth of Blantons Silver down the drain last night as it was undrinkable. Due to where I am, the heat is hell on corks so I no longer want to pick up corked bottles unless they are new product for immediate consumption. So no corked dusties and and no corked bunkering. So I am on the lookout for the best plastic cap bourbon I can find.

2. Another reason is that I have found several middle shelf higher dollar bourbons uninspiring- WR, MM, and BT being prime examples. They may be smoother than their cheaper brethrin, but their is not all that much going on. If I wanted less flavor, some 4 year olds suit me just fine- export KSBW Early Times and export KSBW Kentucky Gentleman for example. I really hate a bottle of KC I have, it is horrible- just char and burn (I will admit, I suspect it was mishandled at some point before I got it).

Maybe on point 2 I am just ignorant of the other options, or I have only had bad luck with lemon bottles, but thats my opinion and it is fresh smelling!

[JPBoston]

The way I think of it is like a bell shaped curve. Many distilleries have their low priced 80 proof "well" whiskey. Then, if you spend just a few bucks more, and get a little more proof, and or age, the quality goes up dramatically. At some point it becomes much more esoteric.

The point of diminishing returns... it's how roughly 90% of my bourbon purchases are judged.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[DBM]

Holy post-from-the-dead resurrection Batman!

For the record, one year later (to the day) my original statement is not valid to me. I have about 100 more bottles of bourbon since then, and I'm not interested in all of them being expensive, rare, limited edition labels. Point of diminishing returns is a great summary. Even with bottles of BTAC, PHC, PVW, FRLE and others open, I equally enjoy ETL, EWSB, SB Blend and even Makers 46 - great bourbon that I can replenish (most) any time for a reasonable price.

The original post would have led to more thoughtful responses if I had left out the last paragraph altogether.

[zillah]

@DBM Heh, I was just reading this revived post and was coming to the conclusion that it is all about diminishing returns. And then bam, you mentioned it right there.

On other whiskey communities (not just bourbon) where notes are scored, you can find this relationship of diminishing returns very apparent if you graphed them.

[TunnelTiger]

I have several value pours that I really enjoy (WT101, EWBIB, AAA, 4RYL, OGDBIB, OGD114) and I also like the fact that they readily available.

Meaning I don't have to bunker them which also means ETL, W12, OWA, and HH labels don't fit into this category for me because they are not.

[upStomp]

I totally agree about the law of diminishing returns applying here. As I Approach Bourbon Zen, I'm finding less and less need to visit the top shelf unless I find something new or interesting to consider. I've identified and keep stocked 5-6 mid to low/mid shelfers, most under $25 if I shop around, that I find are each great representations of different parts of the bourbon spectrum. I've always got something on hand for every mood.

[Dannabis]

Price =/= quality.

IMO many of the bargain brands like EWB, FC103, HH, BT, OGD are excellent quality.

many of the pricier expressions are the same juices just aged/handled/selected for flavor profile differently.IMO above a certain point of quality, you receive diminishing returns on price to flavor/quality.

you certainly must decide for yourself, but it is all newcharredoak aged corn dominant grain distillate.

What I believe you pay premiums for are

branding

skilled barrel selection and blending

time, care and effort aging

uniqueness

limited availability

so definitely try things of low and mid shelf to tell if they meet your needs.

I find low and mid shelf stuff delicious. I also have not invested more than 60$ on any one bottle so I can't speak for the high end bottlings.

[Dannabis]

Reading this thread, CoMobourbons answers are fantastic.

If they seem evasive at all it is just the zen like quality of a master working with a student on the intangible.

I will reread those a few times. Very well written to my mind.

Myself I am quite the novice and do not have the eloquence nor the experience to posit an answer so succinctly.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Dannabis
wrote 'to' but meant 'so'

[Dannabis]

You will not find wine collectors discussing the merits of their Lafites and Margauxs while also singing the praise of $4.99 case buys from the corner market.

I disagree on wines.. When I discuss wine and enjoy wines I try inexpensive bottlings and find many many fantastic varietals and flavors of quality.

But you may be right. You made the distinction of collector and not drinker/connoisseur.

I am an enjoyer and not a collector myself.

please excuse if these responses are untimely.

[Dannabis]

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?17401-Top-Shelf-Chick&highlight=top+shelf

Here's the link to the thread I mentioned earlier about the self-avowed "only top shelf" SBer. Much more recent than I remember! Whoops!

An interesting thing that may have been relevant to the referenced thread is I believe I've read that women have more taste buds and or are generally more sensitive to flavors.

Here is an article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081216104035.htm

I think I read about this originally while reading about hoppy beers and why women tend to be less often attracted to brutally hoppy beers.

please excuse the tangent

[Tony Santana]

Interesting discussion. I like/own FC, OGD114, OF Sig, etc. and recently developed a newfound appreciation for WT101. I tend to find other (roughly) similarly priced brands, such as 4RYL, Weller SR and VOB 86 to be okay, but somewhat bland. And I'll fully admit my exploration of the lower shelves has been perfunctory at best. My limited experience has been that those brands are too, I dunno, is "astringent" the right word? Maybe there's another undiscovered gem in there, but I'm not going to strain myself trying to find it (and while I don't need barrel proofers, I prefer at least 90 proof).

So, at the risk of snobbery accusations, I tend to stay away from what some would consider the "value pours". Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I'd rather drink EWSB or EC12 than plain ol' EW, BT or ER10 over Benchmark, KC over JBB. More often than not I'll spring for the extra $10-12 to buy WTRB over WT101.

My bourbon drinking is most often done at home with no one else but my wife around, so I'm clearly not trying to impress anyone wiht my selection. My best guess in those situations is that I'll reach for a bottle that cost me less than $30 at least half the time, but it's not uncommon for me to reach for something higher on the shelf.

Certainly there's a law of diminishing returns. I don't think my PHC POH is 3 times better than EC12, but I willingly spent at least that much on it. I'll drink much less of the former than the latter. But dang, sometimes it sure feels good to bust out that POH. Bottom line: I fully realize that pricier doesn't necessarily equate to better. But it often does, and perception does affect reality. Even if to some extent I'm fooling myself, what difference does it make as long as I can afford it and I'm enjoying myself?

[Bluffhunter]

I agree with Tony, for as much as I pour myself a drink I want decent quality. Not saying its a $50 bottle every time but usually the $25-$40 stuff and i too like WTRB and spend the extra cash over regular WT101; why not?

[yemenmocha]

Though I'm not that old, I'm going to sound old here... but I think bourbon is a lot more expensive than it used to be so it is somewhat amusing to hear conversations that have bourbon's value (today) as a point in a discussion. I bought nearly a dozen bottles of Stagg for $31 each in Kentucky when I last bought Stagg (was 2003/4) and now the price seems extreme to me. So, for me, bourbon was a great value and that was a major part of it for me. Similar anecdotes exist for other bourbons, and also with regard to availability. I remember seeing Pappy in the store glass case every time I went to the store for a few years way back when.

I still love it, even with the higher prices. And even with those higher prices, there's still superior relative value compared to Scotch (for me, at least). If I spend $40 I can have many of my very favorites, but I cannot say the same for Scotch, and in that category I only have a small list of loved ones for about $60 or less.

One thing I appreciate more about Bourbon is that I can have a range of preferred bottles at my disposal, all at very reasonable prices. On the whole, then, yes the value is a substantial part of my enjoying this fine spirit.

[mister_deez]

One of the things that initially drew me to bourbon was how you get could a great tasting bottle of something for cheap if you knew what to look for, and there was actually a wide selection of these cheap great tasting bottles so you can try different ones. I think this is much rarer for other liquors.