One for the little guys!

[zillah]

I think Dad's Hat is a very tasty young rye. I personally prefer it to Old Overholt. And if you get a chance check out their Vermouth Aged Rye. Really interesting.

The vermouth aged rye is great. Taste just like a Manhatan!

[mhatzung]

I'm not a fan of "craft" whiskey. Its too woody and young; there is something statutory about it all. But I had a chance to taste Journeyman Distillery's Kissing Cousins at WhiskeyFest this year, and I was impressed. It wasn't liquid gold - but it was good..more than just palatable, which I think goes a long way. Kissing Cousins is only a year old and finished in a Cabernet Sauvignon barrel. The wine influence is strong and flavor profile is not typical - but its good, so who cares. If I run across a bottle, I'll buy one.

My wife set up a tour this last weekend for us for our anniversary (yes, she's the best) at Journeyman here in Michigan. They didn't have Kissing Cousins but of the 5 whiskey's I did taste, I liked them all - some more than others obviously. The bourbon I thought was very tasty. I was apprehensive because of all the negatives of small barrels, but I enjoyed them.

Dolph, the distillery is just around the lake from you. It would make a nice day trip.

[Dolph Lundgren]

I'm not a fan of "craft" whiskey. Its too woody and young; there is something statutory about it all. But I had a chance to taste Journeyman Distillery's Kissing Cousins at WhiskeyFest this year, and I was impressed. It wasn't liquid gold - but it was good..more than just palatable, which I think goes a long way. Kissing Cousins is only a year old and finished in a Cabernet Sauvignon barrel. The wine influence is strong and flavor profile is not typical - but its good, so who cares. If I run across a bottle, I'll buy one.

My wife set up a tour this last weekend for us for our anniversary (yes, she's the best) at Journeyman here in Michigan. They didn't have Kissing Cousins but of the 5 whiskey's I did taste, I liked them all - some more than others obviously. The bourbon I thought was very tasty. I was apprehensive because of all the negatives of small barrels, but I enjoyed them.

Dolph, the distillery is just around the lake from you. It would make a nice day trip.

Oh, I've been. What a great space in a cool little artsy town. I totally dig it. When I was there I enjoyed the Ravenswood Rye and the Silver Cross, but I really didn't care for the Featherbone Bourbon. The strong wood influence of small barrels was less on the rye. I saw a few larger 53 gallon barrels in their storage room, so maybe they're transitioning. I think, given the quality of the their distillate, their whiskey aged 5 to 8 years in a regular sized barrel would be great (especially at cask strength).

[Dolph Lundgren]

The vermouth aged rye is great. Taste just like a Manhatan!

That sounds awesome! I imagine the Vermouth influence would work wonders. Dave over at High West released a Double Rye aged 6 months in a reused Manhattan-aged cocktail barrel and it was fantastic - a 90 proof Manhattan. All it needed was a cherry and you were good to go.

[tmckenzie]

I bought some of the McKenzie Rye today. I really like it. It's only aged a year, but they use smaller casks and then finish it in sherry casks. It doesn't taste young at all. It reminds me of Scotch.

let me add to this, the rye you get from us today is 3 year old rye aged in standard 53 gallon barrels. Still finished in sherry barrels. When first released it was aged a year in small barrels. But the whole time, we were stacking it away in 53s as well.

[MyOldKyDram]

Thanks for the info. Sounds interesting and would love to try it one if these days.

[squire]

Tom is your total rye production Sherry finished?

[SqueakScolari]

let me add to this, the rye you get from us today is 3 year old rye aged in standard 53 gallon barrels. Still finished in sherry barrels. When first released it was aged a year in small barrels. But the whole time, we were stacking it away in 53s as well.

Thanks for the update, Tom.

[BAO]

let me add to this, the rye you get from us today is 3 year old rye aged in standard 53 gallon barrels. Still finished in sherry barrels. When first released it was aged a year in small barrels. But the whole time, we were stacking it away in 53s as well.

Is there a way to tell which bottles are 1yr v 3yr?

[JKLS]

I enjoy trying and supporting the micros. But, like others have said, they often don't match up to the tried and true distillers out there, especially at the prices the micros have to charge to sustain and grow their businesses. And then there is the other issue of NDPs posing as micros and whatnot.

I have Balcones True Blue Cask Strength and have had their Brimstone. I have tasted McKenzie Bourbon & Rye at my restaurant where we carry both. I have a bottle of Dad's Hat vermouth finished rye, Ransom Spirits WhipperSnapper, Black Dirt bourbon and a King's County bourbon. We carry a few others at work (Berkshire, can't recall the others, we are a local/farm to table restaurant and like to carry regionally produced spirits) that I haven't tasted but not enough or recently enough to comment on them. I have tried Koval, Old Potrero and some other micros when traveling, but again, not enough to really make an assessment.

I really enjoy the Balcones products, the WhipperSnapper and the Black Dirt. The Dad's Hat is pretty good but I haven't grown to love it, maybe I will. It is a fairly new addition to my bar.

What I have noticed and what I was actually planning on asking this forum is a common thread between pretty much all of the micros I have tried. They all seem to have a sweet malt & cereal grain nose and flavor to them. Not sure if that is exactly what I would use to describe it...but it is as close as I can at the moment. Some of them have very very little of it (Balcones, WhipperSnapper), others have it by the boat load (McKenzie). Either way, I get this nose and flavor in all of these micros in ways I have never experienced in larger producers whiskey. It is not always bad, but sometimes I am not in the mood for it and it does not agree with me. Other times, I enjoy it quite a bit. Does anyone else know what I am referring to and would someone be able to tell me why the micros in particular are likely to have this nose/flavor?

[tmckenzie]

None of our stuff sets on store shelves long. I would venture to say anything on the shelf now is 3. We switched a while back. Really good rye. In standard barrels I prefer to drink it at 18 months. It ages faster as do all ryes, but since we barrel at 100 proof, it ones around fast. I was tasting through the first rye off the new continuous still the other day. Stuff from may really has spice coming through, with a heavier body to it. Should age very nicely.

[SqueakScolari]

None of our stuff sets on store shelves long. I would venture to say anything on the shelf now is 3. We switched a while back. Really good rye. In standard barrels I prefer to drink it at 18 months. It ages faster as do all ryes, but since we barrel at 100 proof, it ones around fast. I was tasting through the first rye off the new continuous still the other day. Stuff from may really has spice coming through, with a heavier body to it. Should age very nicely.

Mine was batch #12/2013

[Leopold]

What I have noticed and what I was actually planning on asking this forum is a common thread between pretty much all of the micros I have tried. They all seem to have a sweet malt & cereal grain nose and flavor to them. Not sure if that is exactly what I would use to describe it...but it is as close as I can at the moment. Some of them have very very little of it (Balcones, WhipperSnapper), others have it by the boat load (McKenzie). Either way, I get this nose and flavor in all of these micros in ways I have never experienced in larger producers whiskey. It is not always bad, but sometimes I am not in the mood for it and it does not agree with me. Other times, I enjoy it quite a bit. Does anyone else know what I am referring to and would someone be able to tell me why the micros in particular are likely to have this nose/flavor?

Two things. One, the larger distillers generally age their spirits longer. As you said, sometimes you are not in the mood for that, and sometimes you are. I'm the exact same way, and that's why we have two whiskies that are younger----because I like to taste the work I did in the mash tuns and the fermenters. Sometimes I want heavier oak influence, and that's why we're putting away BIB expressions that will be 4-15 years old when bottled.

And secondly, recall that we use pot stills while the majors use continuous stills. So for our shop, we're putting all the solids from the fermenters into the pot, where it sits on a hot copper surface for several hours. The continuous stills are operated with live steam, and any contact with hot surfaces are only for a matter of seconds. Pot stills tend to give a more grainy and oily whiskey. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

You should have fun comparing tmckenzie's whiskey over the next few years. He's switched from pot stills to continuous. You will be able to see the difference in the finished whiskey for yourself. I'm sure he can speak to the change better than I.

[tmckenzie]

Mine was batch #12/2013

. Yep, you got the older stuff for sure. In fact that batch won best ny state spirit this year.

[tmckenzie]

Two things. One, the larger distillers generally age their spirits longer. As you said, sometimes you are not in the mood for that, and sometimes you are. I'm the exact same way, and that's why we have two whiskies that are younger----because I like to taste the work I did in the mash tuns and the fermenters. Sometimes I want heavier oak influence, and that's why we're putting away BIB expressions that will be 4-15 years old when bottled.

And secondly, recall that we use pot stills while the majors use continuous stills. So for our shop, we're putting all the solids from the fermenters into the pot, where it sits on a hot copper surface for several hours. The continuous stills are operated with live steam, and any contact with hot surfaces are only for a matter of seconds. Pot stills tend to give a more grainy and oily whiskey. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

You should have fun comparing tmckenzie's whiskey over the next few years. He's switched from pot stills to continuous. You will be able to see the difference in the finished whiskey for yourself. I'm sure he can speak to the change better than I.

. Yes Todd, you hit it on the head. In a pot, the mash boiling for hours degrades a bit releasing flavors that do not come from a continuous. I find the new stuff we are running to be fresher, it is more oily though in a good way, you get basically what smells and tastes like a concentrated fermenter. In our beer still, the temp in the middle of the column is about 200 degrees so really you are not boiling the mash, just vaporizing the flavor and alcohol components, unlike a pot still. I am extremely pleased with what we are making.

[Dolph Lundgren]

Leopold and Tom - where do you guys purchase your barrels from (independent stave)? Are you still maturing in barrels less than 53 gallons?

I've never had a problem with the distillate a lot of micros put out. In fact, I think some semi-micros put out the best distillate on the market right now. The pot still distillate I've had from Willett, High West and Journeyman (Michigan) was phenomenal (High West's stuff had this great buttery popcorn taste), and I enjoyed FEW and Quincy Street's distillate, too. But when I say phenomenal, I really mean potential, because I never feel an urge to go to the store and purchase a bottle of distillate to sip on, and pretty much all of my bourbon friends share that feeling.

I know this has been addressed ad nauseam on the board, but I feel the disconnect is with the smaller barrels. IMO, the wood influence is too strong and most of the micro bottles I've had had a strong cedar(y) characteristic (taste kind of like a toothpick); the great vanilla and caramel flavors of bourbon are minimal or missing all together. Journeyman's Ravenswood Rye had less of the cedar characteristic and was pleasant, but it was still lingering in the background.

There is a huge emphasis on aging these days, but I don't think ultra aging is necessary. There are great Willet Family Estate releases that are 5 to 8 years old (8 years is supposed to be the honey spot). I understand that for a smaller producer 5 years is a long time - but I'm excited for the micros to get to the point where they are releasing bourbons > 5 years aged in traditional casks. It could turn the market on it's head.

These are just my thoughts as a consumer.

[Leopold]

We don't use small barrels. We use 53's, and always have. And yes, Independent Stave. #3's.

[Dolph Lundgren]

We don't use small barrels. We use 53's, and always have. And yes, Independent Stave. #3's.

Thanks for the info, Leopold. My wife really enjoyed the New York Apple Whiskey (great fall drink and awesome with Cider) and my friend said he really enjoyed the American Whiskey. Looking forward to trying it in the future.

My buddy also said really good things about McKenzie's rye - another one on the pickup list.

[JKLS]

Two things. One, the larger distillers generally age their spirits longer. As you said, sometimes you are not in the mood for that, and sometimes you are. I'm the exact same way, and that's why we have two whiskies that are younger----because I like to taste the work I did in the mash tuns and the fermenters. Sometimes I want heavier oak influence, and that's why we're putting away BIB expressions that will be 4-15 years old when bottled.

And secondly, recall that we use pot stills while the majors use continuous stills. So for our shop, we're putting all the solids from the fermenters into the pot, where it sits on a hot copper surface for several hours. The continuous stills are operated with live steam, and any contact with hot surfaces are only for a matter of seconds. Pot stills tend to give a more grainy and oily whiskey. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

You should have fun comparing tmckenzie's whiskey over the next few years. He's switched from pot stills to continuous. You will be able to see the difference in the finished whiskey for yourself. I'm sure he can speak to the change better than I.

Thanks. I figured stills would be a factor.

[tmckenzie]

Impersonally do not like independent stave barrels. We use McGinnis. Nothing but 53 gallon number 4 char, and here is the big deal, all of the wood is seasoned 36 months.

[TunnelTiger]

let me add to this, the rye you get from us today is 3 year old rye aged in standard 53 gallon barrels. Still finished in sherry barrels. When first released it was aged a year in small barrels. But the whole time, we were stacking it away in 53s as well.

[Dolph Lundgren]

Impersonally do not like independent stave barrels. We use McGinnis. Nothing but 53 gallon number 4 char, and here is the big deal, all of the wood is seasoned 36 months.

[tmckenzie]

That sounds awesome! Independent Stave's top of the line barrels, "the Cooper's Reserve," only receives 24 months of seasoning.

This probably merits a new thread, but have you found that the more seasoned wood dramatically impacts the flavor of the whiskey? Pure speculation on my half here, but I have always thought that dusty whiskey had a better and thicker mouthfeel than today's whiskey because older, seasoned wood was used in the aging process.

[squire]

Tom and Todd, I meant to post the other day when this thread got started, just wanted to say I appreciate both you fellas taking the time to post here and provide us with first hand information.

[smokinjoe]

Impersonally do not like independent stave barrels. We use McGinnis. Nothing but 53 gallon number 4 char, and here is the big deal, all of the wood is seasoned 36 months.

Tom, I was watching an interview of Leroy McGinnis on their website, where he points out that the staves for wine barrels are aged 36 months, and staves for whiskey/bourbon barrels are kiln dried for something like 60 days. Do you just order the wine barrels? Or, are the barrels you buy a "special order" kind of thing?

I think that he mentioned that the wood was somehow segregated/classified into which type of barrel it was going in to, as well. Is there a fundamental difference in why the two types are produced differently.

Really pissed at myself for not doing the IS tour last month at KBF.