Why is Bourbon getting worse?

[Jackinbox]

As a newbie, I notice a lot of posts that allude to the fact that many bourbon brands were better decades ago. Just a few examples that come to mind are:

- OGD bottled by ND is better

- Make sure you get the PVW with the SW juice

- Jim Beam White Label was better in the 70s

What's causing this? Are they changing the formulas? Aging less? Cutting corners in distillation?

[tigerlam92]

There is a huge amount of discussion on this before and something I constantly think about as well.

I think a big part is best described by Pappy's statement in this image where no business now a days would even consider.

Cheers

Hugh

[HighInTheMtns]

-Barrel proof, extra-aged whiskey is a thing that can be purchased these days, even if it's not on every shelf.

-Specially selected single barrels are widely available.

-Distillers are adding new expressions, experimenting with new production techniques like barrel finishes, etc, etc, etc...

Why is bourbon getting better?

....anyways, just saying, don't be so quick to be a pessimist.

[Max Power]

As a newbie, I notice a lot of posts that allude to the fact that many bourbon brands were better decades ago. Just a few examples that come to mind are:

- OGD bottled by ND is better

- Make sure you get the PVW with the SW juice

- Jim Beam White Label was better in the 70s

What's causing this? Are they changing the formulas? Aging less? Cutting corners in distillation?

It's because everyone would rather harken back to the "good old days." Also, enthusiasts in an industry would rather highly value things that they have and that the general public does not. It's the same in any industry from tequila to scotch to beanie babies. Retired ones were "worth more" and way better. I've had many chances to have "treasure bottles" of tequila or bourbon and I haven't found them to be hugely better. Some have been really good, but not really better than some of the best brands that are currently on the shelf.

Bottom line: Fins something that you like at a price that you like and enjoy the hell out of it. Don't worry about what everyone says about discontinued or hard to find juices. Find something that you like, for a price that you like, and enjoy it.

[Alden]

Bourbon is getting worse? What? Why wasn't I alerted to this fact?

I agree with Max above. It's like my mom, always longing for the good old days of the 50's and 60's.

As one of my students once told me, "Everything changes, and nothing stays the same, either."

[portwood]

As a newbie, I notice a lot of posts that allude to the fact that many bourbon brands were better decades ago.

It's an age old phenomenon - everything in the past was better than the present and if we keep it up we're all going to hell in a hand basket.

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.*

*attributed to Socrates by Plato

[P&MLiquorsEric]

The good ole days... when pappy was on the shelf, beam was 7 years old, old crow was #1, and a gallon of gas along with a can of beer were under 25 cents.

The list of things they didnt have "back then" was equally as long if not longer... iphones, computers, the internet etc.

[squire]

What we are seeing is the result of a mature industry adjusting to changing markets. Everything costs more (ingredients, labor, warehousing, shipping, insurance) to make whisky now than it did 40 years ago so producers had to streamline where ever they could to remain productive and competitive. A computer controlled still produces a less individualistic product but a more consistent one so that and other production techniques have changed flavor profiles a bit.

The biggest flavor shift I think comes from barrel selection. In the past all the best barrels were blended into the House brands but now they are selected for the premium lines, single barrels, that sort of thing, and the regular brand's profiles have been reformulated accordingly. Our old favorites may have changed somewhat but we are also presented with a wider selection while still having a choice of very good stuff at value prices. I think we are better off now and while the 'dustys' are useful for taste comparisons I don't yearn for the clock to be turned back because the the most interesting Bourbon and Rye made in my lifetime is being made today.

Sometimes when we reflect on past memories the good old days were good because weren't so old.

[Josh]

There is a lot of "the good old days" mentality but there was also an actual event, the glut. When bourbon sales crashed, it took a long time for distillers to adjust their production downward so they ended up with a glut of whiskey. Because they had too much, more mature whiskey was going into lower and middle shelf offerings. Now bourbon is more popular and supplies have tightened so younger whiskey is going into those same brands.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Josh

[squire]

Ah yes, the glut, those are some good old memories to reflect upon.

[BourbonJoe]

I am old enough and drank bourbon at a young age and IMO the off=the=shelf bourbons of today don't hold a candle to their older counterparts. Don't get me wrong, there are great bourbons being produced today but they are usually much older and offered at barrel proof. I still drink bourbons from yesteryear and prefer them to their modern equivalents.

Joe :usflag:

[WhiskyRI]

Josh and Squire's answers are spot on in my opinion. You can see parallels in the Scotch Whisky industry in the 80s with the Whisky loch, or lake. In addition to the factors already mentioned, I think access to information is changing things. 30 years ago most people would only have known what their local store carried and would have been satisfied - and might never have ventured down to the bottom or mid-level shelves or much less tasted exotic things called single barrel offerings. It would have been done by word of mouth only - and transmitted at a much slower pace. Now because of the amplification of the network effect, search engines, blogs Robert Parker (just kidding....) and such people can quickly build a list of things to try and buy, driving up scarcity. For example, recently my local liquor store had a free raffle just for the chance to buy a bottle of Pappy 12, 15, 20 and 23 - had to be present to win. Over 100 people showed up - the bonus was Julian was there so you could get it signed if you wanted. It wasn't that long ago that Pappy sat on the shelves collecting dust because "it was over-priced" over-aged bourbon. Now it just sits on the shelves behind the counter because it is way over-priced by store owners. Personally I think we'll see another boom/bust but the cycle will be shorter - right now Bourbon is booming and probably will continue to do so for some time but the bust will inevitably come. And when it does their will be bargains to be had - mostly likely from KBD et al.

[mosugoji64]

As Josh mentioned, the Glut made it easy to get good whiskey at a very low price. That doesn't mean we don't get good whiskey at a reasonable price now. It just means you have to look for it.

Some brands were better in days past, some are different now but just as good, and (I think) some are better now. One of the best examples is the Weller line. It is very different from what it was under SW, but I think it's just as good under BT. While I enjoy SW Wellers, I find I don't prefer them to current ones - it's just different. And I think HH bourbons are better now than they were. I find their current bottles to be tastier than the pre-fire bottles I've had.

I'm sure everyone here can point out similar examples, and everyone will disagree over some of them as well. I agree with Squire that we're living in a great time where we have a lot to choose from and many opportunities to drink some great whiskey at great prices. Just be sure to attend some SB gatherings in your area and in KY and you'll get ample opportunity to try some of those older bottles and make up your own mind.

[Jackinbox]

-Barrel proof, extra-aged whiskey is a thing that can be purchased these days, even if it's not on every shelf.

-Specially selected single barrels are widely available.

-Distillers are adding new expressions, experimenting with new production techniques like barrel finishes, etc, etc, etc...

Why is bourbon getting better?

....anyways, just saying, don't be so quick to be a pessimist.

Perhaps my original post came out wrong. I probably should have used a different title. I'm not pessimistic at all. I've just noticed that quite a few people think the legacy brands aren't as good as they used to be. I know that there are a few cases where brands like Old Crow are no longer using the same mashbill, so I understand that criticism. I picked up a bottle of Bonded OGD a couple of weeks ago and I think it's great. Having read comments about the ND juice being better just made me wonder what I was missing.

I couldn't be happier with the variety of the selection available today. Thanks to advice on this board, every bottle I've picked up in the last month has been terrific. No complaints here.

It's because everyone would rather harken back to the "good old days." Also, enthusiasts in an industry would rather highly value things that they have and that the general public does not. It's the same in any industry from tequila to scotch to beanie babies. Retired ones were "worth more" and way better. I've had many chances to have "treasure bottles" of tequila or bourbon and I haven't found them to be hugely better. Some have been really good, but not really better than some of the best brands that are currently on the shelf.

Bottom line: Fins something that you like at a price that you like and enjoy the hell out of it. Don't worry about what everyone says about discontinued or hard to find juices. Find something that you like, for a price that you like, and enjoy it.

As a guitar player, the same thing exists amongst many guitar collectors. Every vintage guitar is great. Everything made today is substandard.

The biggest flavor shift I think comes from barrel selection. In the past all the best barrels were blended into the House brands but now they are selected for the premium lines, single barrels, that sort of thing, and the regular brand's profiles have been reformulated accordingly.

That's a great point that I had not thought of. That makes perfect sense.

There is a lot of "the good old days" mentality but there was also an actual event, the glut. When bourbon sales crashed, it took a long time for distillers to adjust their production downward so they ended up with a glut of whiskey. Because they had too much, more mature whiskey was going into lower and middle shelf offerings. Now bourbon is more popular and supplies have tightened so younger whiskey is going into those same brands.

That's another great point that I had not thought of.

Thanks for all of the responses.

[Flyfish]

A lot of us have found that you don't have to go to the upper shelf to find bourbon that is more than satisfactory. Though some brands have declined in quality, I still find considerable value in AAA, VOB, OWA, OGD, EC12, HH White, and...and... Once in a while, I spring for a $30+ bourbon but I am still quite happy with the value pours. Even if they ain't what they used to be. When I was young, I only dated women who were 10s. Now, if a 9.7 smiles at me, I'm a happy old geezer.

[squire]

Yes, a child's smile warms the heart, an attractive woman's smile warms everything.

[Grain Belt]

Nostalgia vs. The Modern World

Art vs. Commerce

Newfound Popularity/Demand vs. Time it takes to make quality product

Massive Corporate Buyouts vs. Family Businesses

[AaronWF]

In addition to the factors already mentioned, I think access to information is changing things. 30 years ago most people would only have known what their local store carried and would have been satisfied - and might never have ventured down to the bottom or mid-level shelves or much less tasted exotic things called single barrel offerings. It would have been done by word of mouth only - and transmitted at a much slower pace.

As Josh mentioned, the Glut made it easy to get good whiskey at a very low price. That doesn't mean we don't get good whiskey at a reasonable price now. It just means you have to look for it.

I think access to information is often over-looked as having a profound effect on what people agree is good whiskey, as well as how much they know about what they like. And I'd re-phrase Brian's quote by saying that the glut made it easy to drink aged whiskey at a very low price. A number of bottles with 4-year age statements are said to have contained juice twice as old and perhaps older.

I also think that the changing quality of water and wood in KY is going to produce products that taste different over time. Same with the underlying grains. Today, most of us consider 6yo bourbon as still immature, but S-W was producing 6yo bourbon with remarkable depth of color and flavor.

The stuff that reminds me the most of the limited experience I've had with high-quality dusties are HH BiB, VoB BiB and just about everything FR produces.

[mosugoji64]

I'd re-phrase Brian's quote by saying that the glut made it easy to drink aged whiskey at a very low price. A number of bottles with 4-year age statements are said to have contained juice twice as old and perhaps older.

Good point. I think we often equate age with quality, though that's not always accurate. I do believe that age makes the whiskey more likely to be good, but that's only one component that factors into the value. We often mourn the loss of age statements, and with good reason, but there are other things to consider. A case in point for me is the loss of the 8-year age statement on Basil Hayden. The loss is sad, but I never bought a bottle anyway. While I thought it was good, the proof was too low and the price too high given the availability of OGD BIB and 114. The age didn't really matter to me.

[ChainWhip]

AaronWF alluded to grains used - I wonder if the corn/rye/barley/etc has changed much over the years. I figure corn probably has changed significantly due to the introduction of GMO crops.

[sku]

This is a great discussion, with lots of good points made. Keep in mind though, that it's not all bad. At least one distillery is making bourbon that's far better than its old stuff, and that's Four Roses. When I started drinking bourbon, you couldn't even buy Four Roses in the US, and the few 4R dusties were all blended junk. Now, they've got a wide variety of great stuff out there, and it just keeps coming. In addition, unlike many other great brands, they've resisted dumbing down age or proof and their prices are reasonable.

[Flyfish]

AaronWF alluded to grains used - I wonder if the corn/rye/barley/etc has changed much over the years. I figure corn probably has changed significantly due to the introduction of GMO crops.

Freddie, tour guide at BT, said they contract for non-GMO grain because the international market is so hostile to GMO products.

[Jackinbox]

This is a great discussion, with lots of good points made. Keep in mind though, that it's not all bad. At least one distillery is making bourbon that's far better than its old stuff, and that's Four Roses. When I started drinking bourbon, you couldn't even buy Four Roses in the US, and the few 4R dusties were all blended junk. Now, they've got a wide variety of great stuff out there, and it just keeps coming. In addition, unlike many other great brands, they've resisted dumbing down age or proof and their prices are reasonable.

I just picked up a Four Roses Single Barrel yesterday. Great stuff! I'm still amazed at how Seagram's handled 4R when they owned it.

One thing I have noticed is that I have yet to read anyone saying the MM is any worse than it was back in the day (84 proof fiasco aside). Perhaps they were so small back then that there just aren't many dusties lying around?

[squire]

Aaron I think a number of people look at age as a quality indicator because that's intuitive but you are correct, Pappy bottled his trademark whisky, Old Fitzgerald, at 6 years as did E. H. Taylor with Old Taylor, Booker Noe with Booker's, Bill Samuels Sr. with Makers Mark and I believe I'm correct in paraphrasing Jim Rutledge, Master Distiller at Four Roses as saying by about 5 years the whisky has extracted all the best the barrel has to offer. There are exceptions of course, some barrels age gracefully for much longer, but across the board 6 years has proved to be the number that works.

[Jackinbox]

Freddie, tour guide at BT, said they contract for non-GMO grain because the international market is so hostile to GMO products.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm learning quite a bit today! That makes total sense since it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to bring in separate grains for the U.S. Market bottles.