Why is Bourbon getting worse?

[squire]

Johnny, I'll reference Jim Rutledge again who is on record as saying there is no difference in quality of the whisky made with GM or regular dent corn.

[squire]

Jack we have to look at where Seagrams was at the time. Their VO and other blends were the company's cash cow so they sold Four Roses as a Bourbon overseas (quite successfully) and did not let it compete with their other brands sold here.

[ChainWhip]

Johnny, I'll reference Jim Rutledge again who is on record as saying there is no difference in quality of the whisky made with GM or regular dent corn.

That's good to know. With scotch, the barley used apparently has had an effect on the quality of the malt (been reading up on Golden Promise barley) so I thought something like this would be mirrored in the Corn/Bourbon world. Was "dent" corn the strain that was used through the "glut era"?

[squire]

What we now call Dent Corn (a reference to the shape of the grain which has a large dimple or 'dent' on each side) has been commercially grown since the 1840s and the primary corn grain used for distillation since that time. Unlike the different varieties of barley, dent corn is remarkably consistent wherever grown.

[Flyfish]

Johnny, I'll reference Jim Rutledge again who is on record as saying there is no difference in quality of the whisky made with GM or regular dent corn.

Scientifically, this may be true but it is not politically correct to unleash the scourge of GM food into the environment. If you want to get into the European Market, you might want to be able to certify that your product is GM free. (Now we'll hear from those who believe that defending the planet from genetically modified foods is the very essence of responsible science.)

[Rutherford]

I'd doubt type of corn would significantly affect bourbon.

There's a bigger difference with barley in scotch because they lack a stronger flavoring grain (rye) and don't use new barrels, all of which give barley more potential to affect the taste of the final product than corn.

[Meruck]

I dont know, I find the more I drink the more I like it, regardless of what it is......................................

[squire]

Yes, golden Promise is to Scottish malts as Maris Otter is to British ales. Interestingly, Golden Promise was created in 1956 by exposing an existing variety to gamma rays making it one of the first genetically modified grains to be widely accepted by the distilling and food industry.

[miller542]

I also think that the changing quality of water and wood in KY is going to produce products that taste different over time.

GMO aside, I also wonder about the water and especially the wood. Anyone building anything out of wood today can tell you how much difference there is vs. wood from 30-40 yrs ago.

Edited May 21, 2013 by miller542

[OscarV]

As a newbie, I notice a lot of posts that allude to the fact that many bourbon brands were better decades ago. Just a few examples that come to mind are:

- OGD bottled by ND is better

- Make sure you get the PVW with the SW juice

- Jim Beam White Label was better in the 70s

What's causing this? Are they changing the formulas? Aging less? Cutting corners in distillation?

I highlighted your question that is also the answer.

It's as simple as that.

(7000)

[T Comp]

Far removed from my maternal farming grandparents but hasn't the development of hybrid corns and management of kernel processing greatly increased the starch content availability in the corn now being used. More starch in the mash should have some effect.

[Meruck]

I also think that the changing quality of water and wood in KY is going to produce products that taste different over time. Same with the underlying grains. Today, most of us consider 6yo bourbon as still immature, but S-W was producing 6yo bourbon with remarkable depth of color and flavor.

Water quality and wood? The water is drawn from the limestone shelf and it takes literaly hundreds of years for the water to perculate down to the table. As for wood, most commcially harvested wite oak trees for barrel staves are taken from eastern Ohio and PA, not KY. S-W produced thier bourbon differently. "Pappy always said presure cooking the mash killed the wheat."

Global warming is NOT effecting your bourbon..........................................right Al?

[P&MLiquorsEric]

Jack we have to look at where Seagrams was at the time. Their VO and other blends were the company's cash cow so they sold Four Roses as a Bourbon overseas (quite successfully) and did not let it compete with their other brands sold here.

A good amount of four roses bourbon was used in the 70s era canadian 7 and VO blends. And speaking of Diagio dumbing down a quality and successful brand. They will be ending the contract with 4 Roses to make bulleitt in the next year. The ten year is all four roses but the regular is a blend of a number of bourbons including four roses.

[OscarV]

Corn? Wood?

It's all in the aging, everyone is bottling green whiskey, it ain't done aging and they are selling young stuff.

[smokinjoe]

...The ten year is all four roses but the regular is a blend of a number of bourbons including four roses.

[Phil T]

Are you sure about that, Eric? I am thinking both Bulleitt's are 4R distillate.

[OscarV]

The ten year is all four roses but the regular is a blend of a number of bourbons including four roses.

[OscarV]

Aaannnd..if its a blend from different distilleries, it can't be straight, which they say it is

[HighInTheMtns]

Aaannnd..if its a blend from different distilleries, it can't be straight, which they say it is

[squire]

I believe a mingling of straights made in the same State and otherwise meeting labeling standards (less than 4 years must have an age statement) can be labeled as Straight Bourbon.

[Phil T]

It can still be labeled straight bourbon, as long as all the straight bourbon involved is from the same state. Only something like High West American Prairie Reserve, which contains FR bourbon and LDI bourbon, must be labeled "A Blend of Straight Bourbons."

[smokinjoe]

I was thinking it was a mingling of different 4R mashbills, but not different distilleries.

To get back on topic, this is one reason bourbon is getting worse...Too damn many mystery bottles...

[Balcones Winston]

Biggest factor, IMO, quality of the cooperage has taken a huge dive. Fully yard-aged wood used to be the norm, now it's a rarity.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

I was thinking it was a mingling of different 4R mashbills, but not different distilleries.

To get back on topic, this is one reason bourbon is getting worse...Too damn many mystery bottles...

Definitely has a number of 4R recipes in both the 10 year and regular bulleit. If the info we were given is accurate, only the 10 year is 100% 4roses.

At times regular bulleit may have been 100% 4R but they could not say for certain that it is now 100%. I don't know if that means if it is distilled at different places, then shipped to be barreled and aged at 4R or if the filled barrels were brought in from outside sources, aged at 4R or if diagio simply bought aged stock elsewhere and it is blended in.

[cowdery]

Biggest factor, IMO, quality of the cooperage has taken a huge dive. Fully yard-aged wood used to be the norm, now it's a rarity.

Do you have any evidence to support that? According to the history as I know it, fully yard-aged wood may have been the norm before Prohibition, though I doubt it, and it most certainly has not been the norm since until very recently. Brief yard aging followed by kilning was the norm from WWII until just recently (no more than the last decade), when the benefits of natural yard aging were rediscovered.

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