What accounts for bourbons of same proof having such big differences in heat/burn?

[squire]

Yes, column stills are very flexible and by drawing off distillate from different levels of the column the stillman can create a desired flavor profile and capture other attributes.

[tmckenzie]

Yes, column stills are very flexible and by drawing off distillate from different levels of the column the stillman can create a desired flavor profile and capture other attributes.

This is only true with coffey type tills, they have rectifier columns. Ky style beer stills do not work that way. The way you control what you get is the speed of mash through the still and the amount of steam you give it. The hotter the column the lower the proof, the colder the column the higher the proof.

[squire]

Actually I was trying not to sound technical as my point was the column still and the pot still work differently.

Edited June 12, 2013 by squire

[Leopold]

To answer the question directly, in general, the perception of heat comes from ethyl acetate, an ester that is produced in large quantities when you stress most yeast strains. In bourbon production, this stress generally comes from the very, very high fermentation temperature that the larger distillers use.

The reason you perceive it in some whiskies and not others is a simple question of masking (other congeners interfering with the perception of ethyl acetate), or process differences (different yeast strains or mash bills, starting gravities, etc)

Someone asked why it (the burn) hasn't been eliminated.... Mr. Cowdery once pointed out that when people describe a Bourbon as smooth or lacking bite, they don't know what they're talking about---- that Bourbon is supposed to have this heat. He is certainly correct in that when you're in the still, and you've used modern large scale Bourbon distillation methods, the ethyl acetate comes out in the heads along with many other positive esters. So if you're reaching for these positive esters, you'll likely pull in some ethyl acetate with that net, so to speak.

The question becomes, how much of the ethyl acetate and other esters do you remove? The issue is, obviously, is that many other positive congeners, such as esters and acids, come off the still together to an extent (in other words, at the same temperature it the still, and therefore out as distillate).... leading the distiller to choose between a little heat, or less character in the final Bourbon. If you take too large of a head cut (in the case of a continuous still, running the still at a different temperature, or using a different still design), you can strip all the character and life out of a Bourbon, yielding a boring Bourbon.

Obviously, I'm speaking in broad generalities, as all distilleries handle all the various processes differently, and there are thousands of moving parts involved in total.

More than some of you would like to know, I'm sure. Happy Father's Day to all your Bourbon fans!

[tmckenzie]

Seems to me though, that back when distilleries had fermentation temp control like they do now, whiskey would have been harsher. That is not the case, even at our place, we ferment hot and we do not seem to have that burn, nor does most of the old stuff I have from the big boys. They used to leave more oils in the product, so that may be covering up the burn.

[WhiskyRI]

Leopold - thank you for that level of detail and for the clear explanation. So to summarize one reason that many lower quality bourbons might have more burn - would be that the producers are choosing to maximize production volume over quality in order to save money and therefore they are pulling in less desirable esters in too large a quantity. Is that a fair one sentence summary?

[squire]

Todd, I get what you're saying, you fellas use a couple of pot stills I believe?

[HighHorse]

Last year High West's David Perkins spent a weekend with our Tallahassee group at the barn. He brought along with him some samples of heads and tails and it was an eye-opening experience. This stuff is powerful and you needed only a sip to taste the "heat" .. especially in the heads. As David pointed out .. and was more noticable when a bit of water was added .. you could also pick out some very desirable qualities .. qualities that would be lost if all of the heads and tails were eliminated. This was discussed in an earlier thread on the same subject. Thanks, Todd for your explanation. It seems to confirm what we tasted and believed at the time.

It drives home the importance of the Master Distiller and their team. I think it also emphasizes the importance of great ingredients needed to deliver the flavor profiles that not only can cope with some of the hotter distillants .. but enhance them. While I enjoy a "soft" easy-drinking bourbon or rye, I relish the big boy, complex pours that have it all in a bottle. Just short of explosive ... that's the sweet spot!!

[benpearson]

I think there is more to it than what has been discussed so far. I do agree that the distillation has a huge impact, as well as the fermentation, quality of the grain, etc. I think the aging process itself has a LOT to do with this. If you have been fortunate enough to be involved in the purchase of a barrel of bourbon, I'm sure many here have, you will know that from a given selection of barrels that have aged together in a warehouse the "quality" of product will vary. I don't believe this only to be true in minute flavor profile differences, but also overall "smoothness"

My personal belief is that "smoothness" has much to do with the balance of sugar content to various astringent compounds and tannin in the wood itself.

I've been told that the sugar absorbed from a barrel follows a bell curve. If the whiskey is bottled too soon before the peak of this curve or too long after it is not going to be nearly as sweet tasting. I also think that it is not going to be as "smooth".

I think this goes into why canadian whiskey, and flavored vodka are so popular. Simply put even if the quality of distillate is lower than that used in bourbon production they have the appearance of "smoothness" brought about by added sugar/sweetener content.

Smoothness within the category bourbon may indicate that it has properly matured...something that I'm not sure I like saying because I don't really like NAS products. This also may in part be why products from small barrels tend to be less "smooth" because the size of the barrel having an impact on the ratio of sugar/tannin absorption over time.

From what I hear from customers in my store, the consensus could be SWEET=SMOOTH.

[HighHorse]

Completely understand that the majority of customers are looking for a lot less from a bourbon than those of us who probably spend way too much time appreciating the finer complexities for the delicious brew. When we pick barrels for our local store, we keep that consumer in mind.

Certainly there are differences in barrels .. and that's why we pick barrels. While most Master Distillers think 5-9 years is the peak (MM,FR, WT to name a few), some of those barrels keep on getting better. Seeking those out is the Holy Grail. That's why Jim Rutledge's favorite is not one of his peak performing 5-9 year olds .. but a 17 year old he had last year.

But to your "properly matured" benchmark ... my "properly matured" probably ain't what most of the customers are looking for. For the most part they are seeking consistency .. same as they look for in their Coke!

[squire]

I also subscribe to the 7-9 year bell curve but, yeah, some gracefully aging barrels mature beautifully.

[BB Slim]

"This stuff is powerful and you needed only a sip to taste the "heat" .. especially in the heads. As David pointed out .. and was more noticeable when a bit of water was added .. "

Interesting, I've found that adding some water tends to mellow or tame an "overly" hot bourbon. It seems logical that water would serve to dilute the volatile compounds (esters) and soften their influence on the palate. From your experience, with the tasting of the heads and tails, it would seem that waters interaction with these volatile compounds (esters) are more complex than just acting as a diluting agent.

[sailor22]

To answer the question directly, in general, the perception of heat comes from ethyl acetate, an ester that is produced in large quantities when you stress most yeast strains. In bourbon production, this stress generally comes from the very, very high fermentation temperature that the larger distillers use.

The reason you perceive it in some whiskies and not others is a simple question of masking (other congeners interfering with the perception of ethyl acetate), or process differences (different yeast strains or mash bills, starting gravities, etc)

Thanks for the post Leopold - clear, concise and cogent. Now I have a name for the characteristic heat taste - ethyl acetate - it's not just the % of alcohol.

The only thing I might add to the masking point is that the individual barrel has some influence as well. As you move down a row of barrels tasting from each the "heat" is more and less apparent. Assuming the barrels were filled from the same run you would expect a marked similarity in the perception of ethyl acetate and that's not always the case. There are outliers and I would ascribe that to the masking effect of flavors and compound associated with a particular barrel.

[Leopold]

Thanks for the post Leopold - clear, concise and cogent. Now I have a name for the characteristic heat taste - ethyl acetate - it's not just the % of alcohol.

[Leopold]

Yes, pot stills at our shop. We've got a few more being built for the new plant. We elected to stick with pot stills during expansion, as that's our path.

Tom at Finger Lakes just fired up his continuous still, and I can't wait to taste that when the time is right!

[tmckenzie]

Yes, pot stills at our shop. We've got a few more being built for the new plant. We elected to stick with pot stills during expansion, as that's our path.

Tom at Finger Lakes just fired up his continuous still, and I can't wait to taste that when the time is right!

Todd make good whiskey in his pots, so do I, but I swear the make off the new still is better. As for esters and such, I think you leave them in and let the barrel figure it out, that is why these dusty bottles of whiskey taste so good.

[squire]

Letting the barrel do it's work, now that's finishing whisky the old fashioned way.

[Brisko]

I've been thinking a lot about this in relation to the 4 Knob Creek Single Barrels that I've had so far. Obviously all the same age, proof, etc.; probably the same area of the warehouse. First one, I would say was moderately hot. It drank great with an ice cube or too, but it was a little tough neat (in comparison to a Booker's I bought at the same time that was not hot at all, and higher proof). Second bottle was super hot on opening, as in, even with ice, it was hot... water made it even worse. But it improved with air time. Within a month it was pretty good. Third bottle was just right, striking a nice balance. I had no problem drinking this neat. The fourth (currently open) is a Fred Noe special pick for a local store. Honestly I could mistake it for Baker's. It's not hot at all, very sweet though. The alcohol is just barely evident. If anything this one could use more burn.

So there you have it, four barrels and four very different bourbons in terms of heat. General flavor profile was the same (at least for the first three, the Fred Noe bottle is more Baker-ish, like I said).

We assume the barrel takes away the heat factor, but are there wood compounds that actually might make it worse?

[squire]

We don't expect single barrel's to be the same profile but that's quite a spread.

[sutton]

That is curious since you'd assume they are making the same cuts off the still - so it has to be barrel and/or warehouse location?

[WAINWRIGHT]

I have always wondered how the yeast reacts with certain tannins and trigger this adverse effect?I understand the use of different yeast strains as used in the different FR's products across the boards and how they interact with the two different mashbills which always seems to work,but in the Beams what is the inconsistency derived from?I will have to fully agree that KCSB is one of the most inconsistent and potentially hottest bourbons on the market,whats the trigger?I always associate hot/dry and prickly heat and KCSB has it to the hilt with any given off barrel and I know I'm not the only one,Brisko has already covered it as well.I will once again have to agree in that I have never had another bourbon that water has only heightened the burn/heat like the KC,so really what gives?

[B.B. Babington]

Most of the low end bourbons are all burn. That and Woodford Double Oaked. It's like a flash of flavor and then prepare for pain...

I bet if you stop drinking for a month and started back, you'd feel the burn again.

or take a big gulp of stagg and anything after that would be smooth??

IMO, burn comes from proof, but then ya get burn and bite (something different) from other things as well. the woodford double oak gives more bite from tannins. as noted, heads & tails also give burn. we're talking about alcohols other than ethanol, esters, aldehydes, ethers, carboxylic acids (bite again). note that these heads & tails congeners are also what might give more hangover, but then also give more interest to the drink.