Things Dave Pickerell says

[Josh]

Yesterday afternoon I received a text message from bonneamie reminding me that Dave Pickerell (Maker's Mark Master Distiller for 14 years) was making an appearance at The Sugar House, a cocktail bar in Detroit, that evening. If I ever knew about it I had completely forgotten, so I stuffed my mouth full of my dinner and we made our way down as soon as we could. The drink special that night was $3 shots of Maker's and $4 shots of Maker's 46 which is a damn good deal so I had a few.

Dave spoke and took questions for about two hours. He told stories and talked about his time at Maker's and his time since 2008 acting as a consultant and Master Distiller at Whistle Pig, Mt. Vernon and Hillrock. Amy scored points when she asked what it was like working with George Washington. I tried to get Dave to reveal the source of Whistle Pig but he didn't fall for it. I also asked him if he had thoughts on the Maker's Mark proof reduction fiasco, and he did. He was in town doing some work with the Two James distillery in the Corktown area of Detroit (near where Tiger Stadium used to be, and a few blocks from the bar).

Instead of trying to recount everything he said as he said it, here are some highlights by topic:

Miscellaneous Information

-Dave won the KBF cocktail contest three years in a row, but the first cocktail he invented turned out to be an old cocktail that already had its own name. The third one he invented was supposed to be a cross between an Old Fashioned and a Manhattan. When Gary Regan tasted it, he said it wasn't an old fashioned or a Manhattan but it was good anyway. He named it the Pickerell, but Dave had nothing to do with that since he doesn't like to put his name on things.

-Dave used to be a big stickler on drinking his bourbon neat but while working at Maker's he came to the conclusion nobody has the right to tell anybody how they should drink their bourbon.

-He slowly sipped on a Maker's sour while he was talking

Microdistilling

-Dave on microdistillers making whiskey: "Eventually, it's going to have to taste good."

-Dave thinks the microdistillers are driving innovation right now. This is because they aren't as constrained by the need to sell thousands of cases of a product to make it successful like the big producers are. For many micros, 100 cases sold of any product counts as a success. This means the costs of experimentation are much lower

-He had never worked with rye before working at Mt. Vernon. The first time he made a batch there he noticed a little foam was forming on top while the rye was fermenting. So he put a sheet of plastic over the top of the fermenter and put a couple pieces of wood and a brick on top of the plastic before he left the distillery for the day. The next morning when he walked into the room where the fermenter was the brick and wood were on the floor as was a two foot layer of foam. They lost that batch.

-The mix of whiskey from all the Kentucky distilleries Mt. Vernon released tasted terrible.

-The Mt. Vernon Rye currently being released is distilled at Hillrock in New York because it's easier to do it in a more modern facility. The working conditions are pretty primitive at Mt. Vernon.

-Hillrock is currently making the world's first ever Solera aged bourbon.

Other Master Distillers

-He didn't know Elmer T. Lee well but said he was a gentleman and active at BT practically until the day he died. He had a greater impact on the bourbon industry than anybody else in his lifetime.

-He thinks BT should change the proof of ETL to 93 in honor of Elmer's age when he passed away.

-Jimmy Russell is a good friend of Dave's and has been a mentor to him throughout his career.

-Jimmy taught him the importance of pausing for a photo op (see below).

-Once Dave and Jimmy were at tasting. A guy got up and made a big show of swirling his bourbon in his glass, sipping it slowly and announcing that he tasted blackberries, winter fruit, leather and many other obscure flavors. Jimmy leaned over to Dave and said, "I don't know about you, but I don't put any of that shit in my bourbon!" Both then starting laughing hysterically, disrupting the tasting.

Maker's Mark

-Bill Samuels is one of the most brilliant men he's ever met.

-Bill knows next to nothing about making bourbon but is a masterful marketer.

-Before Dave worked at Maker's he worked at an engineering firm that did some work for Maker's. Dave didn't like the way the way the company handled the business with Maker's and told Maker's about what happened. Later when Dave was in Loretto, Bill came up to him and said, "Did you know we are currently looking for a new Master Distiller?" Dave said, "No." Bill said, "We are plum out of candidates and we didn't like any of them. We like you, though. The job is yours if you want it." He accepted and the next day told his former boss he was quitting and also that Maker's was no longer going to be using that company's services.

-He said the MM shortage is very real. He thinks the proof change was the right move to make and he is disappointed that they caved to public pressure. In his opinion the problem is not capacity but the surprising growth of the brand in the midst of a deep recession. Nobody expected that and so nobody planned on increasing production to meet that growth.

-He predicts that since the proof change was rolled back there will be "rolling shortages" of MM around the world.

Amy and I took photos as well. I'll post those later.

[Restaurant man]

Sounds like a good night. I love the way jimmy Russell is so damn old school.

[squire]

Very good report Josh, thanks, I just wish he had said more about the source for Whistlepig.

[bonneamie]

I'm trying to think of any nuggets of information that Josh missed, but I can't. It was a great night of story telling (true ones, I'm sure).

[Gillman]

Excellent report, thanks for taking the time. I've read different versions of the blackberries story over the years. I get that many insiders came up with a different perspective on it, but using adjectives drawn from other tastes are as old as the hills. It's been done for centuries for wine, beer and all kinds of drinks. It's just another way of looking at something, helpful in particular to those seeking a guide to tastes and qualities. That's why consumer writers in particular have always specialized in it and the practice has transferred to boards like this one.

Gary

[Josh]

Excellent report, thanks for taking the time. I've read different versions of the blackberries story over the years. I get that many insiders came up with a different perspective on it, but using adjectives drawn from other tastes are as old as the hills. It's been done for centuries for wine, beer and all kinds of drinks. It's just another way of looking at something, helpful in particular to those seeking a guide to tastes and qualities. That's why consumer writers in particular have always specialized in it and the practice has transferred to boards like this one.

Gary

[Gillman]

I'm with you, to be sure. We've all read writers who like to put a long string of adjectives together and at the end of it you don't have any clear impression of what the drink is like. It is better to be economical with metaphor and simile. One of my favorites is the late Jim Roberston's description circa-1978 of Chimay Rouge trappist ale.

He said it reminded him of his Aunt Beanie's root beer.

Perfect! (Even the old hands would like that one ).

Gary

[squire]

This Old Hand does.

[SWC]

Great stuff, thanks for posting.

[sutton]

Thanks Josh, loved reading your notes. And I think that is a great idea about increasing the proof on the ETL ... would be unique and a nice simple memorial.

[squire]

Or go back to the 107 proof where Elmer had it originally.

[Josh]

Or go back to the 107 proof where Elmer had it originally.

[MauiSon]

Well, since there is already a 93 proofer that Elmer helped start, it'd be silly to change ETL to 93 proof too.

[Old Dusty]

Well, since there is already a 93 proofer that Elmer helped start, it'd be silly to change ETL to 93 proof too.

[HighInTheMtns]

OR...take the Blanton's to Barrel Proof like the export version and slot ETL in at 93.

[squire]

Or bottle all the SBs at barrel proof and make that a characteristic of the category.

[Stormeh]

Or bottle all the SBs at barrel proof and make that a characteristic of the category.

Ha, could you imagine?

[squire]

It's a logical step one would think.

[Tony]

Great stuff Josh, thanks for sharing.

Reminds me that I need to go on Facebook more so I know what is going on around town.

Best regards, Tony

[Josh]

One important tidbit that Dave mentioned that I forgot in the original post was what he said about the bulk whiskey market. He said that right now the oldest bulk whiskey available is 15 mos. old. There is basically none to be had anywhere. In his decades in the industry, he has never seen such a tight supply across the board. I was reminded of this while reading the KBD Single Barrel thread.

[cowdery]

Just FYI, ETL is an Age International brand, not Sazerac, so Age would have to make any proof change decision.

[Josh]

Just FYI, ETL is an Age International brand, not Sazerac, so Age would have to make any proof change decision.

Indeed. Thanks for the correction.

[HighHorse]

Great post, Josh. Enjoyed your recounting of the evening. I'm all on board with the tasting story. And you know what? I don't want to taste blackberries in my bourbon!:skep:

[mbroo5880i]

Great post, Josh. Enjoyed your recounting of the evening. I'm all on board with the tasting story. And you know what? I don't want to taste blackberries in my bourbon!:skep:

Yes, thanks for sharing! Blackberries in bourbon is like blackberries on pancakes. Just give me plain ol' maple syrup!

[Gillman]

Esters are a recognized part of the chemical make-up of many matured whiskeys and other beverages. A typical description of an ester to a layman is that it has a fruity smell. Of course, as in anything, one can take it too far. "This has notes of long-stored hay lead pencil, slightly over the hill peach, a soupcon of grandma's lard tin and that ineffable scent you get when strolling the seashore in New England near where they sell salt water taffee". Yup, that nails it.

I can't recall which writer it was who made a drollery about how often picnics appear in cookbook directions, e.g. "This herb-scented roast chicken when cold is the perfect main dish for your next picnic". The writer wrote, one would think the hills and dales of the land are covered with the picnickers the whole year.

Kind of the same thing, you can take something too far. But hey sure I get a note of some kind of black fruit in bourbon, sometimes - more in the dusties than today, but that's another story.

Gray