It seems to me that...

[Gillman]

Well, for years I bought HH bourbon and most of it had a marked eucalyptus taste (IMO). And then after a time that characteristic faded. And then for some years some HH bourbon, and rye, didn't come from HH become of the fire. And then they started to again, from a different distillery though, or at least the make was albeit aged in Bardstown. So knowing that something may come from HH doesn't really tell me that much. Added to that, even in periods where source seems assured, one bottle of EC 12 can often seem quite different from another, IMO (I find this a good thing by the way). And the other companies all have a version of this, not in the same way exactly, but e.g. we learn that one may start to scour the barrels to get out the absorbed bourbon. Another may acquire new warehousing capacity, purchased or newly-built, whose aged whiskey may be rather different from that from other rick houses. For quite some time WR was all-Louisville whiskey, then that changed. And so on. More info is better than less I guess, but I read what everyone says and what the label says and then I'll try it. If I like the actual taste, I'll buy again. Ditto with almost no knowledge and I gave the example of that wonderful CVI rye. On the first buy I might take a chance (all relative in this context), but I may hit a winner and often have. In fact some of the best buys I've made have been NDP bottlings, e.g. the Woerner's bourbons (a private label) in San Francisco of about 15 years ago, most of the earlier Van Winkle bourbons, the Vintage series (Willett's I believe but after that who knows?).

I'm not knocking how others view it but seeking further to explain how I approach it.

Putting it a different way, often I've been disappointed in the result because a well-known label didn't live up to a previous bottling. This is though part of the inherent variability of bourbon - I shouldn't and don't expect more but by the same token buying NDPs after either taking a chance or seeking whatever information is available (e.g., you find out a private bottling is aged S-W), is at least and often more rewarding.

Gary

[White Dog]

I buy all Bourbons that I like, whether NDP or not. And while I know that many on the board will state that they only care what the juice tastes like, I always want to know where it was distilled. Why? Because it's FUN for me to find out. I enjoy figuring out the puzzle. To me, that's part of being a connoisseur. I wanna know where each and every label came from simply because I'm a geek about it.

[White Dog]

It seems to me that bourbon (or whiskey in general) is one of the few industries where the consumer base demands honesty. Maybe I'm more aware of our priority in truth due to my involvement with this community, as well as the industry. Anyone else agree or disagree? I'm sure there are plenty of examples that would negate my point, but it's interesting to observe how the bourbon community holds honesty in such high regard, compared to other consumables.

Or maybe it's just us? Maybe we're just the types that are concerned with pedigree, we want to know what blades of grass our cow ate before it was slaughtered, we want to know the name of who sewed our pants together, we want to know what square mile our coffee beans were harvested from...

[squire]

That's Mr. Pants-on-Fire to you Sir and we'll have you know our shit is so refined it lacks any odor and is not intended for you lot who can't afford it anyway.

[T Comp]

I disagree. The reason you hear such a demand for transparency in the world of distillates is that there has been so much dishonesty/misinformation for so long.

I'm not saying that HH or BT are trying to intentionally lie to anyone, but when I started to get into Whiskey I thought, "Why the hell do they list "Elijah Craig" or "Old Prentice" as the distillery on these various labels? It's an odd practice who's time has past. I put this in the harmless but weird misinformation camp.

But now add to those weird practices operations like Michter's and Templeton, who actually do outright lie, and I would say that the industry has some serious honesty issues. (And don't get me started on all the "distilleries" that purchase NGS from another part of the country, rectify it, and call it a "local/artisinal" vodka.) These fall into the dishonesty/pants-on-fire/you're-full-of-shit camp.

Good point on the fake distilleries from the majors and overall effect that has. And I just had another encounter this weekend, Templeton drinkers cannot be convinced in any way, shape or form that it is made in any other place than Iowa.

[wadewood]

Good point on the fake distilleries from the majors and overall effect that has. And I just had another encounter this weekend, Templeton drinkers cannot be convinced in any way, shape or form that it is made in any other place than Iowa.

I have experienced the same reaction from Templeton followers; it's almost cult like.

[TunnelTiger]

It's because they read it on the internet and if it's on the internet it must be true.

[squire]

I know a college professor in Iowa who is a big Templeton fan and when I gave him the correct internet references he refused to look them up. Some beliefs are beyond challenge.

[whiskeyagonzo]

I know a college professor in Iowa who is a big Templeton fan and when I gave him the correct internet references he refused to look them up. Some beliefs are beyond challenge.

I am batting .500 on the Templeton source conversion if you will. One was upset at being lied to the other would not listen no matter how much information I threw at them. Squire reminded me of Cool Hand Luke. Ole Boss Keen said, “There's some men you just can't reach.†Oh well. I tried.

[fishnbowljoe]

I am batting .500 on the Templeton source conversion if you will. One was upset at being lied to the other would not listen no matter how much information I threw at them. Squire reminded me of Cool Hand Luke. Ole Boss Keen said, “There's some men you just can't reach.†Oh well. I tried.

Nice one Jarrod. Kinda reminds me of another great line from Cool Hand Luke.... Strother Martin to Paul Newman. "What we've got here, is failure to communicate." :banghead:

[whiskeyagonzo]

I apologize for a bit of a drift here but Cool Hand Luke is one of my all time favorite movies. As kid growing up, not matter what else was on TV if Cool Hand Luke came on my Dad & I would sit down and watch it together. Just a classic. Great, great movie.

[GaryT]

It's because they read it on the internet and if it's on the internet it must be true.

Hey - wasn't that a quote from Abraham Lincoln?

Oh no, it went like this:

[PaulO]

I heard that guy hiding in Russia has a file that tells the true sources of all the NDP bourbons and ryes. :skep:

[squire]

Yeah, somewhere thereabouts, he's a blogger but I can't read Cyrillic.

[rcb4d]

Thank goodness, I'm relieved to know it's not just me dealing with the Cult of Templeton followers. I engaged one in discussion for a while, as he asserted that someone should sue them if they are lying. I pointed him to a thread about NDPs here, and one from Chuck's blog, but he still wasn't entirely convinced. I think we left it at me telling him that since he was in Iowa, he should just go to the distillery and start asking questions.

[T Comp]

... And I just had another encounter this weekend, Templeton drinkers cannot be convinced in any way, shape or form that it is made in any other place than Iowa.

[squire]

Yes, one cannot contend against an article of faith.

[Old Dusty]

Apropos to this thread:

http://spiritsjournal.klwines.com/klwinescom-spirits-blog/2012/7/13/the-story-of-black-maple-hill.html

[Flyfish]

It seems to me that there are two very different ways to define "honest" in the bourbon industry. On the one hand, there are very specific rules governing what "Straight Bourbon" means. On the other hand, there is a ton of crap in the marketing side of the business about that little ole distilerry down in the holler. For example, is anyone believing the back story for WT's new Forgiven whiskey? And how many gentlemen actually were the fathers of bourbon?

In the end, if it says Straight Bourbon or Bottled in Bond on the label, you have a pretty good indication that it meets certain minimum standards. At the retail level, however, I recently purchased a liter of WT101 at a Costco in Iowa. The shelf tag said it was 8YO. I knew that could not be true so I read the label. NAS. Even though I knew it was BS, I bought it anyway because the price was right even for NAS.