How would you characterize wood influence in aging?

[hn4bourbon]

I don't know if this deserves a new thread. If it doesn't, mods please move this or delete this thread:)

After reading some of the recent postings regarding certain individuals not liking a certain older bourbons and some others mentioning their sweet spots were the younger stuff or middle aged stuff. I have been thinking about how I would myself characterize wood influence relative to age of said bourbon and how it translates to my enjoyment of said bourbon (or any whisk(e)y for that matter).

I personally would characterize the younger stuff to have a more piney, sharp, a little more bitter note that builds up over volume of consumption. The older stuff I find more notes of mustiness, earthiness, rounder, richer, and sweetness from the wood.

Anyway, thought I would ask how you guys find it since it's on my mind. I'm of course not trying to get into a thread of comparing one being better than the other because everyones' tastes and preferences are different. I just would like to hear it described. I'm here to learn:)

Thanks,

edit: One additional thought. I have found myself gravitating to bourbons (or other drinks in general) that are a bit more wood influenced with a bit of age. I can't figure out why other than guessing that it could be from my wine drinking experiences getting more of an acquired taste and enjoyment from that aspect.

Edited September 18, 2013 by hn4bourbon

[zillah]

YMMV depending on the bourbon. Warehouse location, mashbill, etc... will have an impact. However, from my experience:

0 - 4 years: slightly sweet, hot, medicinal, very present grain character

5 - 7 years: very sweet, less hot, fruitiness, much more rounded grain character

8 - 10 years: the sweetest, the smoothest, creaminess, less of a grain character

11 - 15 years: very sweet, more barrel tannin, earthy and bitter, even less of a grain character

16+: slightly sweet, most tannin, richly bitter, very woody, virtually no grain character

Maybe someone can correct me if I am off base here.

[393foureyedfox]

I don't know if this deserves a new thread. If it doesn't, mods please move this or delete this thread:)

After reading some of the recent postings regarding certain individuals not liking a certain older bourbons and some others mentioning their sweet spots were the younger stuff or middle aged stuff. I have been thinking about how I would myself characterize wood influence relative to age of said bourbon and how it translates to my enjoyment of said bourbon (or any whisk(e)y for that matter).

I personally would characterize the younger stuff to have a more piney, sharp, a little more bitter note that builds up over volume of consumption. The older stuff I find more notes of mustiness, earthiness, rounder, richer, and sweetness from the wood.

Anyway, thought I would ask how you guys find it since it's on my mind. I'm of course not trying to get into a thread of comparing one being better than the other because everyones' tastes and preferences are different. I just would like to hear it described. I'm here to learn:)

Thanks,

i cant figure out who youre talking about....:skep:

i might describe, say, the HH BIBs i like as piney or bitter, at times. I dont necessarily think it is a negative, though I did early in my bourbon experimenting.

musty/earthy is something i believe, and may well be wrong, comes from the distilling and/or storage of the barrels.

i think the rich and sweet tastes seem to come on after 6-9 years. i love the warm, thick, cinnamony, spicy goodness of my KC120.

but, what the hell do i know?

[hn4bourbon]

i cant figure out who youre talking about....:skep:

i might describe, say, the HH BIBs i like as piney or bitter, at times. I dont necessarily think it is a negative, though I did early in my bourbon experimenting.

musty/earthy is something i believe, and may well be wrong, comes from the distilling and/or storage of the barrels.

i think the rich and sweet tastes seem to come on after 6-9 years. i love the warm, thick, cinnamony, spicy goodness of my KC120.

but, what the hell do i know?

You're definitely one of the recent posters that got me thinking about this. There are others' posts as well that I have read that contribute to what's on my mind:)

[VAGentleman]

On some older bourbons (such as a recent Willett 21 year I had ) I get a distinct pickle juice flavor. Not sure if this is from being over oaked or not?

[sutton]

In addition to the spice/vanilla/caramel/toast notes the barrel will add to the flavor over time, a barrel will also micro-oxygenate the contents. So even a neutral barrel will change the contents over time - so you are getting barrel notes but also chemical changes as a result of this oxygenation and time. A pickle juice note can occur in some wines aged in American Oak, so it doesn't surprise me that it can also be found in a whiskey aged the same way.

[393foureyedfox]

pickle juice?!

never picked up on that in anything yet....

[HighInTheMtns]

pickle juice?!

never picked up on that in anything yet....

[393foureyedfox]

Another recommendation: get some LDI rye. Willett for high proof; Bulleit or Dickel are other options. Spicy pickle juice.

[squire]

Yes, it's a Four Roses product, at least for the present.

[HighInTheMtns]

i was indifferent on Bulleit, but havent had the 10 year. even had the bulleit rye, indifferent.

never had anything from dickel.

we are taking a Willet tour on saturday morning. my friend, who is going with us, has a bottle of some kind of WFE that his wife got him, its 130 something proof, and its too 'hot' for him. i keep meaning to get over there and try some....

come to think of it, doesnt 4R make Bulleit? that may explain my indifference if so

Sorry, miscommunication. I'm referring to Bulleit Rye, Dickel Rye, and Willett 3, 4, and 5 year old Ryes, which are all made by LDI/MGPI in Indiana. They have a prominent dill character and a lot of rye spice.

[LIQUIDWHEAT]

I opened a Smooth Ambler Yearling with a friend the other day. We were trying to get a handle on the tastes of different age wheaters. We both thought the initial smell was as if you had just cut a piece of oak plank. The opening taste was yeasty, like bread or the taste from Dom P Champagne. I would love to see what the folks at Smooth Ambler could do with this youngster if given a few more years in wood. Any other thoughts from my bourbon brethren?

GANBEI

[Tony Santana]

The only Smooth Ambler I've had is the Very Old Scout - love it, but clearly the opposite end of the spectrum as it's well-aged and sourced bourbon, so not their own juice. I'm encouraged you liked the Yearling, but we'll all have to cool our heels for awhile to find out whether their final product is going to be worthwhile.

I didn't think the VOS (age statement of 19 years) came across as too woody. I read some reviews that said it left a Kalamata olive taste - I didn't pick that up either (thank goodness). YMMV.

[VAGentleman]

pickle juice?!

never picked up on that in anything yet....

[zillah]

Can confirm: I have found pickle juice notes in MGP rye.

[hn4bourbon]

I'll have to see if I can pick out pickle juice next time:)

[sutton]

There can be a dill note in some American Oak barrels; add a bit of acidity or sourness from the distillate and that is probably where it comes from, I'd guess.

[hn4bourbon]

Enjoying some JPS18 right now after a good sized pour of SB blend of OWA:W12:FRSB (3:1:0.5). OMG, pickle juice is definitely there for the JPS18! Thanks for sharing that note:) it could be just me wanting to taste that note:)

[393foureyedfox]

im starting to think that me bringing habanero pickles to the gazebo is gonna reinforce people tasting "pickle juice" in their bourbon. ive never tasted it in any bourbon

[VAGentleman]

im starting to think that me bringing habanero pickles to the gazebo is gonna reinforce people tasting "pickle juice" in their bourbon. ive never tasted it in any bourbon

You're lucky. I wish I hadn't

[393foureyedfox]

You're lucky. I wish I hadn't

[VAGentleman]

A Willett 21, a Belle and Meade bourbon and a Wild Turkey Tradition. I've had other WTT and Willett 21's that didn't have it so that's why I was asking about over oaked.

[kickert]

I actually have a chart that I used to draw out for people who visited the distillery that showed my understanding of how a barrel influences whiskey.

It is my contention that the effects of aging closely mimic the a cross section of a bourbon barrel stave. The first thing you have is the char -- think of it like activated charcoal -- it actually removes something from the whiskey. So, the sharp edges are worn away and you lose the grainy flavor of the white dog. The second layer is the "red zone" where you find the caramelized sugars from wood. This layer is responsible for adding sweetness and those distinct bourbon flavors (caramel, vanilla, tobacco, fruit, spice, etc.). The third layer is the uncharred wood. Here is where you get the (surprise) woody notes as well as the tannins (bitterness).

Each of these layers of barrel influence come sequentially but are overlapping and the influence deminishes as time goes on. So if you I were to draw it out, it would look something like this:

===== CHAR ----- - - -

. . . . --===== CARMEL ---- -- -- - - - -

. . . . . . . . . . .--===== WOOD ---- -- -- - - - - - - -

I find the "smoothing" effect of the char mainly takes place in the first five years (which explains why JB at 3 years is still pretty rough). It isn't until year five that you start getting the caramel flavors. And then at 10 years, you can start to pick up the "woody" notes.

So assuming this has some validity, you can find some naturally occurring sweet spots. The 7-8 year range is nice because you can find some very approachable juice that has been polished by the char, and has the caramel influence beginning to show. Great spot to look for high quality mid-shelfers. Then, the 12 year range is really nice as well because the caramel is peaking and you are getting the woody influences, but it isn't overwhelming. This is where you can find some excellent whiskey for reasonable prices ($30-40) without having to pay the premiums that come with extra-aged stuff.

I am not a fan of overly oaked whiskey, and I find after the 15 year mark or so the woody notes tend to dominate.

Personally my favorite age is 12-15 years (And I would often rather go a couple years younger than a couple years older) because it is here where I find the char has done its job to smooth things out, the caramel has peaked and given the whiskey its body, and the woody notes are there to add complexity without overpowering.

Of course there is a very good chance I am way off base, but what I described above certainly matches my experiences and preferences.

Edited September 20, 2013 by kickert
Fixed ASCII art

[hn4bourbon]

I actually have a chart that I used to draw out for people who visited the distillery that showed my understanding of how a barrel influences whiskey.

It is my contention that the effects of aging closely mimic the a cross section of a bourbon barrel stave. The first thing you have is the char -- think of it like activated charcoal -- it actually removes something from the whiskey. So, the sharp edges are worn away and you lose the grainy flavor of the white dog. The second layer is the "red zone" where you find the caramelized sugars from wood. This layer is responsible for adding sweetness and those distinct bourbon flavors (caramel, vanilla, tobacco, fruit, spice, etc.). The third layer is the uncharred wood. Here is where you get the (surprise) woody notes as well as the tannins (bitterness).

Each of these layers of barrel influence come sequentially but are overlapping and the influence deminishes as time goes on. So if you I were to draw it out, it would look something like this:

===== CHAR ----- - - -

. . . . --===== CARMEL ---- -- -- - - - -

. . . . . . . . . . .--===== WOOD ---- -- -- - - - - - - -

I find the "smoothing" effect of the char mainly takes place in the first five years (which explains why JB at 3 years is still pretty rough). It isn't until year five that you start getting the caramel flavors. And then at 10 years, you can start to pick up the "woody" notes.

So assuming this has some validity, you can find some naturally occurring sweet spots. The 7-8 year range is nice because you can find some very approachable juice that has been polished by the char, and has the caramel influence beginning to show. Great spot to look for high quality mid-shelfers. Then, the 12 year range is really nice as well because the caramel is peaking and you are getting the woody influences, but it isn't overwhelming. This is where you can find some excellent whiskey for reasonable prices ($30-40) without having to pay the premiums that come with extra-aged stuff.

I am not a fan of overly oaked whiskey, and I find after the 15 year mark or so the woody notes tend to dominate.

Personally my favorite age is 12-15 years (And I would often rather go a couple years younger than a couple years older) because it is here where I find the char has done its job to smooth things out, the caramel has peaked and given the whiskey its body, and the woody notes are there to add complexity without overpowering.

Of course there is a very good chance I am way off base, but what I described above certainly matches my experiences and preferences.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences! This is very helpful and makes alot of sense. I will definitely refer to this to compare notes as I continue to experience this little journey:)

[kickert]

YMMV depending on the bourbon. Warehouse location, mashbill, etc... will have an impact. However, from my experience:

0 - 4 years: slightly sweet, hot, medicinal, very present grain character

5 - 7 years: very sweet, less hot, fruitiness, much more rounded grain character

8 - 10 years: the sweetest, the smoothest, creaminess, less of a grain character

11 - 15 years: very sweet, more barrel tannin, earthy and bitter, even less of a grain character

16+: slightly sweet, most tannin, richly bitter, very woody, virtually no grain character

Maybe someone can correct me if I am off base here.

I think Z has a very good scale here. The specifics will change based on many factors, but if you are just looking at barrel influence (my preferred term over "aging"), I think this is right on. It clearly illustrates how some flavors diminish over time while others are added, and how the different flavor influence peaks at different times.