My First Glass of Pappy 23 Year Old

[p_elliott]

I think the pappy bashing is not warranted. It's great whiskey whose price has been pushed up by demand. Even if the demand is more of a thoughtless frenzy. If the price is too high then pass. The retail prices are inline with the market. Might even be way too low considering the demand. Certainly the van winkles should be praised for their contribution to the bourbon scene. Not condemned. Don't just piss on it cause you can't get a bottle. Or don't think it's "worth" the hype.

Kevin you would have a point if it was what it was but it isn't any more. PVW is not SW anymore and the Lot B is not Bernheim anymore it's all BT now. So why the hype for Weller bourbon?

[HighInTheMtns]

Kevin you would have a point if it was what it was but it isn't any more. PVW is not SW anymore and the Lot B is not Bernheim anymore it's all BT now. So why the hype for Weller bourbon?

The hype is definitely not related to the relative "goodness" of the bourbon at this point. That said, there's pretty much no other options for extra aged wheaters (looking at you Heaven Hill!)

[Restaurant man]

Kevin you would have a point if it was what it was but it isn't any more. PVW is not SW anymore and the Lot B is not Bernheim anymore it's all BT now. So why the hype for Weller bourbon?

[Trey Manthey]

I think the pappy bashing is not warranted.

[Old Dusty]

I'm certainly not going to throw the Van Winkles under the bus because they created a brand that got famous. In fact their story is compelling and a great B school case study. What interests me is the fact that the juice that led to the fame is going/gone right at the peak of the frenzy. Those of us "in the know" are probably a small % of the buying public. Will the unwashed masses clamoring for the Pappy be satisfied with BT distillate? Will they know or care? It will be interesting to watch unfold though in the age of social media it wouldn't take much for the tide to turn if someone feels mislead or "cheated" because they didn't get what they thought they were buying.

And BTW I know the deal and will still be buying 10, 15 and Rye if I can find them.

[portwood]

All they do is produce and market.

[Restaurant man]

No one was bashing the whiskey or the people that make it or market it, just the hype surrounding it. The "wankers" are the people that feed on and perpetuate the hype.

[ISU_grad]

This talk of pappy and why is it so special reminds me of the hype here in Central Iowa for Templeton Rye. It's was odd to know people who would never drink any kind of whiskey outside of maybe a jack and coke. But when they heard that templeton was going to be at xyz store they would take the morning off and run over to the store right away so they could be first in line to purchase.

Now the stuff is everywhere and hardly anyone around here talks about it. The fad came and went, hopefully that will happen with the high end bourbons too.

[Max Power]

This talk of pappy and why is it so special reminds me of the hype here in Central Iowa for Templeton Rye. It's was odd to know people who would never drink any kind of whiskey outside of maybe a jack and coke. But when they heard that templeton was going to be at xyz store they would take the morning off and run over to the store right away so they could be first in line to purchase.

Now the stuff is everywhere and hardly anyone around here talks about it. The fad came and went, hopefully that will happen with the high end bourbons too.

So basically people are just telling me that PVW is the Beanie Babies of whiskey. It happens with a lot of stuff.

It's an exclusivity thing. I've had everything up to the 20 and it was good...and maybe even worth buying at retail, but the aftermarket prices are just crazy. The only drink I've ever had that I has thought was worth $200+ is TUN 1401 Batch 3.

[suntour]

I can definitely hear the beanie babies angle, but I can also see the Pliny the Elder (the beer) angle.

However many years later, they still can't make enough of it, and it sells out almost immediately everywhere it goes. My store gets some but never puts it out on the shelf - you have to ask for it. I suspect the heat will cool from Pappy at some point, but it goes more the Pliny route than the Beanie route. Then again, people are drinking Pliny immediately after they buy it. I suspect the bubble aspect will come from the hoarders (who drove the prices up and through the roof) who never drank their whiskey, trying to unload it when they stop caring a few years from now.

[Don_Draper]

I'm certainly not going to throw the Van Winkles under the bus because they created a brand that got famous. In fact their story is compelling and a great B school case study. What interests me is the fact that the juice that led to the fame is going/gone right at the peak of the frenzy. Those of us "in the know" are probably a small % of the buying public. Will the unwashed masses clamoring for the Pappy be satisfied with BT distillate? Will they know or care? It will be interesting to watch unfold though in the age of social media it wouldn't take much for the tide to turn if someone feels mislead or "cheated" because they didn't get what they thought they were buying.

And BTW I know the deal and will still be buying 10, 15 and Rye if I can find them.

[smknjoe]

It already has. Try a 12yr S-W vs 12yr BT ORVW. They are night and day. I still like the BT stuff, but it's not the same (and mostly not worth it unless you can actually get retail.)

Edited September 25, 2013 by smknjoe

[tylermke]

Old Dusty I was talking about this with a friend today the fact that Pappy wont be pappy anymore bc of BT distillery. His contention was that it is still the same recipe. I am still mostly a beginner in this area w enough knowledge to be dangerous. Do you feel BT distillation will completely change the taste even though they are a seperate entity of BT?

There is a difference between the BT and SW distillate. Both are still very good, but I prefer the SW in a blind taste. However, I will concede the mouthfeel on the BT is a bit better.

[Old Dusty]

Old Dusty I was talking about this with a friend today the fact that Pappy wont be pappy anymore bc of BT distillery. His contention was that it is still the same recipe. I am still mostly a beginner in this area w enough knowledge to be dangerous. Do you feel BT distillation will completely change the taste even though they are a seperate entity of BT?

Don I've tasted both and as they say repeatedly on here YMMV. I love S-W juice but BT makes some fantastic bourbon in its own right. There are many whose opinions I have come to trust and whose palates are more refined than mine who say there is little to no difference. Jason Pyle did a side by side w Pappy 15's and loved them both while noting only subtle differences. Chuck Cowdery has said he is a huge Lot B fan and loves the new make as well. Think it remains to be seen if the general market gets to understand the change in source and if it has an impact.

Edit: keep in mind S-W has reached almost mythic levels with aficionados so its hard to compare. I just tasted an older Lot B at KBF and would have to say the newer stuff can't beat that one but maybe neither could another year with the same source. It was that good( thanks Dougdog).

Edited September 25, 2013 by Old Dusty

[Don_Draper]

Don I've tasted both and as they say repeatedly on here YMMV. I love S-W juice but BT makes some fantastic bourbon in its own right. There are many whose opinions I have come to trust and whose palates are more refined than mine who say there is little to no difference. Jason Pyle did a side by side w Pappy 15's and loved them both while noting only subtle differences. Chuck Cowdery has said he is a huge Lot B fan and loves the new make as well. Think it remains to be seen if the general market gets to understand the change in source and if it has an impact.

The 23 year I had was good and amazingly smooth. I would like to have more to have more time to enjoy. But at $50 a glass I have to either find a bottle or get very rich.

[smokinjoe]

Old Dusty I was talking about this with a friend today the fact that Pappy wont be pappy anymore bc of BT distillery. His contention was that it is still the same recipe. I am still mostly a beginner in this area w enough knowledge to be dangerous. Do you feel BT distillation will completely change the taste even though they are a seperate entity of BT?

One could argue that the taste has been different for years. Before, any of the Pappy lore and legend even started. Personally, I don't think there has been, or will be, much of a change from the totally BT distilled Pappy, and the recent years released whiskey that the hyped-up, late-arriving Pappyphiles have come to know...uh, in the last year, or so...:crazy:

[sutton]

One could argue that the taste has been different for years. Before, any of the Pappy lore and legend even started. Personally, I don't think there has been, or will be, much of a change from the totally BT distilled Pappy, and the recent years released whiskey that the hyped-up, late-arriving Pappyphiles have come to know...uh, in the last year, or so...:crazy:

+1 ... I've had 15 and 20 in an LA restaurant a year and a half ago. Can't tell you whether it was SW or BT because I have no frame of reference for pure SW - both were excellent. I'd gather many who are chasing and have driven prices up have no frame of reference either, and sooner or later, when the next "gotta have it" comes along (whether whisk(e)y or otherwise), this bubble will burst. I think that just means the secondary market will collapse, but I think these bottles are always going to be priced at premiums at retail, but they may become a bit more available to those who purchase because they really LIKE and want to drink the whiskey.

[ISU_grad]

I can definitely hear the beanie babies angle, but I can also see the Pliny the Elder (the beer) angle.

However many years later, they still can't make enough of it, and it sells out almost immediately everywhere it goes. My store gets some but never puts it out on the shelf - you have to ask for it. I suspect the heat will cool from Pappy at some point, but it goes more the Pliny route than the Beanie route. Then again, people are drinking Pliny immediately after they buy it. I suspect the bubble aspect will come from the hoarders (who drove the prices up and through the roof) who never drank their whiskey, trying to unload it when they stop caring a few years from now.

Yea, I'd agree with the Pliny reference. I think it will eventually become more available when the novelty wears off. I'm sure there are tons of people sitting on unopened bottles of the stuff, that will eventually get bored and move on. That being said I'm sure the S-W stuff will always command some premium.

I've only ever had the 15, and I must say it is a very good bourbon. But I don't know that it demands the price some are asking and evidently paying.