What makes a top shelf bourbon?

[bourbonv]

What is the the characteristic that you look for in a top shelf bourbon? Is it extra age? High Proof? Nice Packaging? Cost? Something else?

I will say for me taste is the final determining factor and many "top shelf" bourbons of today are regulated to the middle or even bottom shelf of my bar. I will try something once that has a place on the top shelf of a bourbon bar, but if it is an overpriced product with little taste, it will not find its way into my personal bar.

Mike Veach

[cowdery]

I have been making the point recently to anyone who will listen that enthusiast bottlings are not necessarily about achieving some kind of subjective "best." They are more about rewarding a spirit of adventure and discovery, showing you something new and unexpected within the context of the American straight whiskey style. It's about pushing the limits. George Stagg is a perfect example of this. It would be hard to appreciate what BT accomplished with Stagg without a lot of experience tasting a broad range of American straight whiskeys. EWSB comes to mind in this regard too. These are not necessarily products you will turn to if all you want is a pleasant quaff. They are challenging, complex and not for the faint of heart. Nor, because this is very much in the nature of American straight whiskey, are they particularly subtle. On the other hand, I think of WTKS and Blanton's as being more subtle pleasures and maybe more along the line of an epitome. Ridgewood Reserve, I think, belongs more to the Stagg family, in that it gives you something to think about, especially when you have the opportunity to compare it with VOB. The experienced taster wants something that tastes good--that's a given--but also wants something that he/she hasn't tasted before. "Show me something different" is what we want from a "top shelf" product.

My concern about the industry has long been that with so few distilleries and the normally cautious and conservative nature of distillers, that it wouldn't be possible to generate enough variety and "newness" to keep enthusiasts interested. So far, I've been proven wrong.

[bourbonv]

Chuck,

Very good points as always. I agree with the idea about being challenged. Maybe I should ask instead is, "what makes a top shelf product survive the first year?" I applaud Buffalo Trace for another factor and that is price point. They provide interesting products at a reasonable price, even though they too spend the money for nice packaging.

Mike Veach

[kitzg]

There is not much to add to the two of you, of course. But indeed variety is what makes it interesting for enthusiasts. This would be a really dull forum if Elmer T. Lee (for example) was the only real top shelf item around and the rest of our interest had to stretch between Kentucky Tavern, JB White, and HH green or Ten High.

It would also be dull if distillers had all seen the relative commercial success of Knob Creek and simply tried to get that exact profile and taste in a bottle.

I am SO thankful for the recent past and all of the mid-range and above product that we have to select from.

Since "top shelf" does mean relative price (a BMW would be less desired if they cut the price in half) MY top shelf consists of the bourbons I like the best in taste combined with savor the most because I know they are a bit more rare and expensive. In fact, it would be a mistake for a distillery to charge too little (let's say $10) for their best bourbon as consumers equate quality with price UNTIL they have their own experience with the product.

We also must realize that "Top shelf" to an enthusiast is slightly different than "Top shelf" at a bourbon bar and VERY different than "top shelf" in the average bar in the U.S. where Turkey 101 and Makers slong with Knob Creek (if all three in one bar) are the best they carry.

[bourbonv]

Greg,

You too make some interesting points. Top shelf for one person is not the same as it is for another and they both may be different from the top shelf of a bar. Indeed, I personally would consider Old Fitzgerald 1849, Old Forester 100 proof and Very Old Barton top shelf products because I enjoy them all quite a bit even though they are a lower shelf price point. Most bars do consider price above everything else because they have a money making priority and want to sell more of the expensive brands.

Your point about making them too cheap is also well made, but I still think Buffalo Trace is smart for making their products available at a reasonable price. A question for you is this - Would Stagg have been as popular if you had to pay $75.00 a bottle?

Mike Veach

[tdelling]

>In fact, it would be a mistake for a distillery to charge too little

>(let's say $10) for their best bourbon as consumers equate quality with

>price UNTIL they have their own experience with the product.

...and even then, people will still defer to "conventional wisdom".

Tim Dellinger's First Law of Craftsmanship holds that most people who

buy finely crafted products can't appreaciate them. They buy

Dom Perignon, but couldn't pick it out from Korbel in a taste test.

My Second Law holds that these people make up a majority of the market,

and make it possible for the product to exist, since the conniseur

population isn't large enough to support the market.

In the same vien,

I've often wondered whether Julian sets the price of his 13YO Rye

a little low in order to keep the sales numbers down, since he

has a limited supply.

Tim Dellinger

[bourbonv]

Tim,

What you say reminds me of something United Distillers did in the early 90's. They had a program called "confident pricing" where they boosted the price of every one of their products under the theory that if you charge more, then people will think it is worth more, thus buy it more. It worked on some products but not others, mostly not. Very soon afterwards they sold a bunch of the brands to Heaven Hill.

Mike Veach

[kitzg]

Mike, we're on the same page, here. Notice I used the example of $10 as too cheap for some bourbons because that would cause many to think it surely could not be that good.

But since I personally am a value shopper I will buy more when I think it is a value. With the popularity of Wal-Mart most Americans are value-shoppers, too.

And I'm hoping Stagg is $39, not $49 and at $75 I'd pass it up (and try to get a sip of Bobby's )

I'll buy one at $49 and under $39 I'll buy two.

Weller 12 is my regular pour because I can get it for about $15 and I truly love it!

You SURE CAN make something TOO expensive and UD was stupid for a "let's raise 'em all" attitude!

[OneCubeOnly]

That's really a tough question to answer. The other replies have all brought up some interesting thoughts on the subject. "Top shelf" is definitely subjective, and I'd argue that it's largely a product of marketing. Sure, there are the bottles that you wouldn't expect to see anywhere else (eg. Stagg, OFBB, Pappy, even Booker's), but there are also bourbons that are masquerading as "top shelf" (Maker's Mark comes immediately to mind!). Along the same lines, I'd even argue that plain-old-regular-bottle Buffalo Trace is top-shelf quality masquerading in a mid-to-lower shelf bottling. Anyway, the simple answer to the original question is, "it's subjective."

[bourbonv]

Greg,

I agree, we are on the same page. What I am trying to figure out is if high price and nice packaging is truely the key to a "top shelf" bourbon or not. In my opinion, Kentucky Pride is an undeserved top shelf bourbon with the high price, interesting package, but only an average bourbon at best, yet remains on the top shelf and in the market.

Mike Veach

[Marvin]

Mike,

I have read your question on what makes top shelf bourbon and have also read all the replies you received. Very Interesting!!! I have the upmost respect for your reviews and comments, but I must say this I think all of you are making a big deal over something that is very simple. Top shelf bourbon is what "you like" whether it be the $7 bourbon or the $200 bourbon. One thing is for sure I have met a bourbon I didn't like!! But when it comes right down to it give me the VOB, Buffalo Trace (I sort of liked the comment about BT nevertheless it is a top notch bourbon). I have tried them all, most people buy 1-3 bottles and make a statement. I buy a case or two and try them over a period of time. So what is a top notch bourbon???It is the one you like!!!For me it's AAA, VOB, Old Fitz all 100 proof. Which only goes to show you don't have to spend a week's paycheck on bourbon, but that is not the whole story. I do appreciate the top end bourbons that are being made now, I am just saying there are some fantastic bourbons out there that is certainly within the reach of everyone. I think today we are so blessed to have bourbons that are so good for our enjoyment. So regardless of the one you like just put it on the top shelf and say "Hey, this is what I like". Here's to all the bourbon lovers - I tip my hat to the one you like

Cheers,

Marvin

[kitzg]

IMHO There's no doubt that price, package and/or marketing hype (ala red wax, limited edition, etc.) can make a bourbon "top shelf" for a liquor store and bar. If the bourbon is at least decent they may get repeat purchase, if it tastes like paint thinner they will likely get one try from someone on this forum and no more. And with bad taste they won't get repeat purchase from the high rollers, either.

However, among enthusiasts we've seen a host of definitions. And I still hold out that price is a factor. If I really love a bourbon (e.g. Weller 12) as long as I can get it reasonably priced it is one of my regular pours and I would not call it my top shelf. If I have friends over then I still would pour them Eagle Rare SB or ER 17 if I was telling them it was my top shelf and not pour them the Weller. I'd tell them the Weller was outstanding -- and better than Maker's Mark, though.

Greg

[bobbyc]

Speaking of the faithful, is anyone else out there finding it awfully expensive to keep up with all the new bottlings?

Actually I'm at my saturation point for all of this, more or less. I do want the fall OFBB. I don't have a new Pappy 20, Probably won't get a new 23. If the Four Roses Single Barrel ever hit the US market I may get 1. If it is available from now on I would get it as needed. I may get some Saz. The ER17 , and If they did find some more Weller to do a 19 with, someone else can get that. I like the entrance Ridgewood made, excellent bourbon and a reasonable price, It should be readily available from here on in.

Marvin is right, It's what you like be it 10 dollars or a lot of dollars.

[bourbonv]

Marvin and Greg,

I think that a top shelf bourbon has to be perceived as a top shelf quality, thus price and packaging are what counts at a bar, but not everything. Another interesting product that I think was touted as a top shelf product, but has failed for the most part is Whiskey River by Heaven Hill. It has name recognition with Willie Nelson and a gimmick with the guitar pick, but the bourbon failed to impress most drinkers.

Mike Veach

[kitzg]

I agree. You can fool people until they taste it. -- Greg

[Gillman]

Each has his own definition of course but I would say a top shelf product is one that is very faithful to the style that is bourbon whiskey. Bourbon is a grainy (corn-based), sweetish, somewhat wood/charred wood-flavoured liquor. It should be substantial in body and have a depth of flavour with nuances such as tobacco, caramel and medicinal and maybe fruit-like tastes. Bourbons such as these generally will be at least 8 years old and often two or three times that in age.

The bourbons presented to the market as top-shelf (through their price and elaborate packaging) often meet these criteria, but not always. The contenders which disappoint me usually do so because the body is not heavy enough. Some top-shelfs, such as Knob Creek, are heavy-bodied but many are not. I like the flavour of Eagle Rare 10 year old Single Barrel, for example, but wish the body was heavier; ditto for Baker's Bourbon. I find the flavour of Maker's Mark excellent but would like to sample one with more barrel age than 4-5 years.

Since bourbon is not cognac it should in my view have a heavy body as it did generally before Prohibition. At that time, I believe whiskey was drunk neat or diluted in short or tall drinks. The diluant was water, not pop drinks. With a diluant as water, the body of the liquor needs to be heavy for the flavour to come through. Today, much bourbon is taken with cola or other soft drinks and their rich flavour substitutes as it were for the body the whisky should have on its own. This will matter, that is, mainly to those who like whiskey neat or with water only.

Some bourbons are top shelf because they were always premium products but "didn't know it", i.e., these brands are not self-conscious so to speak about their merits. Evan Williams 7 year old falls in that category in my view. So does Very Old Barton (the new 1792 is good but the regular VOB is still in a class of its own).

Generally, a top-price bourbon will be quite good according to the criteria I mention, yet not as good as it could be. Conversely, some reasonably priced bourbons are top-shelf in quality. Finally, some aged expensive bourbons are not worth the money asked because they are simply too old. When the wood takes over from the other elements in the drink, it ceases being a premium drink for me.

Gary