Barrel Proof?

[fricky]

Are there any regulations concerning what can be sold as barrel-proof bourbon?

[Trey Manthey]

As long as it's over 80 proof...I don't think there is an upper limit, but I've never seen one reach 150 proof.

[fricky]

If there are no regulations, could I mix many barrels of varying proof and cut the entire batch to 120 proof and sell it as barrel proof?

[callmeox]

If you were Beam and wanted to sell, let's say Knob Creek, at barrel proof...that's what you would do.

Like small batch, barrel proof isn't a regulated term.

[393foureyedfox]

If there are no regulations, could I mix many barrels of varying proof and cut the entire batch to 120 proof and sell it as barrel proof?

cutting it with ANY water makes it not barrel proof anymore. if what you mean is, can you take a 108 barrel proofer, and a 142 barrel proofer and mix them 50/50 to make a 'barrel proof' 125 proofer, I guess that technically it is still barrel proof, as no water was added. i assume thats what most of the barrel proof non-single barrel bourbons are: for example, all the ECBP 2nd release was 137 proof. its next to impossible that every single barrel dumped at exactly 137 proof.....they dumped some 135's, some 139's, some.....you get the idea....mixed it all together, measure the proof, and bottle the whole batch and label it appropriately.

beams KC120 is the next thing to barrel proof. I think they said on a tour that it averages 125 proof out of the barrel, they just cut it with just enough water to keep a consistent 120 proof. cheaper to label it that way i imagine.

[HighInTheMtns]

As logical as that sounds, whiskey makers love putting catchy phrases like "barrel proof" on bottles, and if it's not regulated, it doesn't mean a thing.

Consider for example Wild Turkey Rare Breed. Labeled "barrel proof" but clearly water has been added.

[kickert]

I have never heard an insider admit to it, but the folks are right... BP is not a regulated term and there is nothing preventing a company of calling something barrel proof even if it has had water added to it.

I have a feeling that to some people this news will be like learning bourbon can be made outside of Kentucky and Santa Claus is not real.

[T Comp]

...

Consider for example Wild Turkey Rare Breed. Labeled "barrel proof" but clearly water has been added.

Bingo! Same proof now on it's 10th year.

[Gillman]

Guys I think what they do is mingle different barrel proofs to average to that number. Wouldn't be hard to do with a bit of math.

Gary

[portwood]

Guys I think what they do is mingle different barrel proofs to average to that number. Wouldn't be hard to do with a bit of math.

Gary

I don't think they have to be exact on the proof. As long as it isn't below the stated number I believe they have a bit of latitude on the high side.

[HighInTheMtns]

Guys I think what they do is mingle different barrel proofs to average to that number. Wouldn't be hard to do with a bit of math.

Gary

I don't think so. For a large bottling batch, while trying to maintain flavor profile, that bit of math turns into a pretty difficult endeavor.

[luther.r]

On a similar topic, what about single barrel? Is that term regulated for labeling?

[Gillman]

I don't think it would be that hard really. They only have one bourbon mash bill after all. At that proof too, flavour differences are less important. Anyway I could be wrong, certainly.

Chuck might know, maybe he will offer comments.

Gary

[Gillman]

This says water isn't added:

http://wildturkeybourbon.com/goods/#

(From Wild Turkey's website, click on the image for Rare Breed).

[MtnDew]

On a similar topic, what about single barrel? Is that term regulated for labeling?

I don't think that it's technically regulated but given that it's a pretty specific name it would be hard to not be referring to only using a single barrel, otherwise wouldn't that be lying on the label? The other two, small batch and barrel proof, can be fudged since they are relative.

[kickert]

Guys I think what they do is mingle different barrel proofs to average to that number. Wouldn't be hard to do with a bit of math.

Gary

Yeah, but once you get it out of your head that Barrel Proof is regulated to mean "no water added" a whole new paradigm unfolds. I can't believe that given the option, a company like WT wouldn't want to utilize that flexibility. Sure, it is nice to "try" and get it there just by mingling barrels, but why do that when you can just blend proof and bottle. Plus, in the case of WTRB that has a low proof point, there is not a lot of wiggle room to adjust the proof downward by mingling.

[kickert]

I don't think they have to be exact on the proof. As long as it isn't below the stated number I believe they have a bit of latitude on the high side.

You actually have it backwards. There is zero latitude when it comes to over proofing and underproofing, any sample bottle tested by the TTB has to be within 0.2 proof points. When you consider all the variables that go into checking proof, it is actually a pretty strict guideline.

The reason they are so strict with it is because the TTB is all about taxes (it is part of the Treasury Department afterall). They collect taxes based on proof gallons that leave a distillery (how many equivalent gallons if everything was normalized to 100 proof).

Edited October 4, 2013 by kickert
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[Gillman]

I go by what the website says, I take it at face value unless the statement is shown to be wrong. They don't have to state anything on the topic but they do... Also, I don't see how it is so difficult to get to that proof when they are using, as well, three different ages to make the mingling. They can choose different proofs of any or all of the three different age ranges to make the final adjustment.

[callmeox]

So, you think they have the skill to solve for two variables when bottling Rare Breed (both proof and consistent taste)?

I'm skeptical that they have that ability.

[Gillman]

I wouldn't have thought that is a challenge for a company with so much inventory amongst the three age ranges (plus single mash bill), or rather the two that will form the bulk of the contents (i.e., excluding likely the 12). I could be wrong again, but don't see why they would take the trouble to say something on the topic if it wasn't so. Anyway I'm good with it either way: Rare Breed is my favourite expression amongst the WT range!

Gary

[portwood]

So, you think they have the skill to solve for two variables when bottling Rare Breed (both proof and consistent taste)?

I'm skeptical that they have that ability.

Especially when they mix bourbon and rye barrels by "accident" :slappin:

[Brisko]

So, you think they have the skill to solve for two variables when bottling Rare Breed (both proof and consistent taste)?

I'm skeptical that they have that ability.

[fricky]

Rare Breed is the bourbon behind my initial post. Wild turkey is blending three different ages of various barrels to attain 108.2 proof. That has to be incredibly difficult when you take into account the proof variability among all of the different barrels as well as the volume variation within each barrel. All of these variables are combined to attain a specific taste profile and result in 108.2 proof. Rare Breed is also my favorite

Wild Turkey bourbon. I guess I am one of the people that still believes in Santa Claus.

[Gillman]

Well, this is interesting:

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.ca/2012/12/of-whiskey-and-innovation-part-3.html

Chuck reports that the proof may be raised to 111, due to earlier having raised their entry proof to a (still low) 115, i.e., the average proof level in their inventory will rise over time so they are targeting now (or apparently soon) for a 111 proof number for the brand. If they used water, they wouldn't need to do that. (No it doesn't prove anything but seems consistent with the view I take of it at the moment. No need to believe in Santa. ).

Gary

[MauiSon]

Why oh why don't we have someone here as the go-to-insider-guy on WT? You'd think they'd want a rep onboard (unofficially, perhaps), despite our tiny niche status.

Edited October 4, 2013 by MauiSon