Of Micros and Men

[sutton]

I can understand nondisclosure from the distillery point of view. They have no control over what the NDP does with the whiskey and if the bottling is crap, the distillery won't want their name on it. Plus, it probably wasn't their best whiskey, anyway.

True enough. But the same can be said for Independent bottlings of Scotch who disclose the distillery right on the label - if it is a bad cask, it seems to reflect badly on the Independent and not on the distillery. And if the distillery is willing to sell something truly awful instead of sending it off to be distilled into industrial alcohol, then I guess they deserve it.

[portwood]

True enough. But the same can be said for Independent bottlings of Scotch who disclose the distillery right on the label - if it is a bad cask, it seems to reflect badly on the Independent and not on the distillery. And if the distillery is willing to sell something truly awful instead of sending it off to be distilled into industrial alcohol, then I guess they deserve it.

Generally true but there are exceptions.

There are some known distilleries that sell to independents BUT do not allow their names used: Glenfarclas, Glenfiddich, Balvenie, being the best examples.

[squire]

Or the Macallan cup trick of pouring a cup full of another make into the barrel before sale so the contents are 'blended' and cannot be labeled Macallan.

[portwood]

Or the Macallan cup trick of pouring a cup full of another make into the barrel before sale so the contents are 'blended' and cannot be labeled Macallan.

Yes, that might be a recent policy for them but there are many (older) examples of independent bottlings of The Macallan. See examples here (scroll down).

Edited November 12, 2013 by portwood

[squire]

MGP promotes itself as a supplier of bulk whisky. Heaven Hill, Beam, Ancient Age and Barton already have their name on labels of truly dreadful blends so I don't see how they would be harmed by being known as suppliers to Willet, Town Creek or various boutiques.

It's only the NDPs who want the name of their sources kept secret and with prices beginning at $40 a bottle I can understand why.

[sutton]

That's where it seems to me there is an opportunity for an NDP to provide some value-add - you often here comments on the board about "...I'd love to taste this at 12 yr old", or "this would be great if blended w/ X" ... you often see odd age statements in scotch (11 yr olds, etc), or that were subject to different aging or finishing (Angel's Envy), and people will pay some mark-up for that service.

[squire]

Yes, that might be a recent policy for them but there are many (older) examples of independent bottlings of The Macallan. See examples here (scroll down).

Of course there are, and for other major Scottish distillers as well, my point being they can prevent such labeling if they want. It was also common until recent years for distillers up and down the Spey Valley and it's tributaries to attach the name 'Glenlivet' to their brands even though there was no Glenlivet distilled whisky in their bottles.

[Yeti]

Generally true but there are exceptions.

There are some known distilleries that sell to independents BUT do not allow their names used: Glenfarclas, Glenfiddich, Balvenie, being the best examples.

Don't mean to make a federal case out of it, (because you're correct) but I want to point out that it's more "overwhelmingly true". Those are really the only examples that I can think of, and there are around 120 active malt and grain distilleries in Scotland.

With that said, I wouldn't mind someone bringing me a bottle of "Speyside's Finest" (the pseudonym required by Glenfarclas) any day.

Back on topic -

What year do you think we'll see the first wave of widespread maturity in the craft community? By that I mean, the majority of current crafts distilling in house, aging to at least straight bourbon requirements, and then putting a product on the shelf around the country at a reasonable price ($35-45). Balcones has released a 5 year barrel, but will probably need their new expansion to come on before they put down something along the lines that I'm considering. The first Smooth Ambler should roll out at the end of 2015, but I think 2017 will be where they hit their first stride on the big scale. Leopold is expanding big time. That new place in Washington, Westland, looks to be a potential player right out of the gate, if the investment is enough to go on.

Do you think we'll get there this decade, or will the economies of scale put it off indefinitely?

[squire]

Who knows, I'd be just as inclined to speculate on the brand names that will be used on legal pot cigarettes by then.

[sutton]

Do you think we'll get there this decade, or will the economies of scale put it off indefinitely?

I think it might be a bit like craft beer, but maybe a little worse given the longer cycle time it takes to get volume up. When craft beer first started out, you could find certain bottlings in your region pretty easily; outside of your region not so much. So I guess it will depend on the craft distiller's distribution strategy - if they spread wide and thinly, it becomes like another PVW chase if it is good stuff. Should make the Pappy/BTAC chase a very interesting thing to watch in three or four years.

[SmoothAmbler]

It's only the NDPs who want the name of their sources kept secret and with prices beginning at $40 a bottle I can understand why.

I don't want to feel like I'm pimping my stuff....I guess I am to some extent....but more to be part of the conversation. So......

While our Old Scout is more of a simple mingling than the art of blending, we do feel like we add value. It's high proof compared to many brands, it's non-chill filtered (we have the capability to chill filter if we desired- we don't), it's mature, and it's moderately priced. Are there large distilleries making good juice at more affordable prices? You bet. We are trying to offer the the customer as much value as we can afford. And we don't keep much secret.

BTW, love the conversation.

[squire]

Honesty is the best policy . . . . . . . . . .

[SmoothAmbler]

What year do you think we'll see the first wave of widespread maturity in the craft community? By that I mean, the majority of current crafts distilling in house, aging to at least straight bourbon requirements, and then putting a product on the shelf around the country at a reasonable price ($35-45). Balcones has released a 5 year barrel, but will probably need their new expansion to come on before they put down something along the lines that I'm considering. The first Smooth Ambler should roll out at the end of 2015, but I think 2017 will be where they hit their first stride on the big scale. Leopold is expanding big time. That new place in Washington, Westland, looks to be a potential player right out of the gate, if the investment is enough to go on.

Do you think we'll get there this decade, or will the economies of scale put it off indefinitely?

I don't know many craft guys laying down significant (for craft) stock of large barrels. 5-7 guys maybe. So, it's going to be a while before we see quantities of mature stock that amount to anything even for the average enthusiast. You are right, we will have supply of mature stock in 2015, but 2017 is when we will have enough supply to have meaning.

[DrBob]

I think craft distilling will by necessity be a lot slower to go national, you really need 5+ years to start hitting the sweet spot of most bourbon, and you need only a few weeks to put a craft beer out. Not only that but if you have a 100 gallon still your not accumulating aging barrels at a very fast rate, and you may have to use a large part of your cut for vodka, etc to pay the light bill.

I think its very likely if someone makes a truly superior product that they will head in the direction of BTAC and Pappy in both price and availability, but again, its easier to pick out honey barrels when your rackhouse has 1000's of barrels in it so even Pappy volumes may be a struggle even if they have cracked the code on making better bourbon.

[shoshani]

At one time, blends of straight bourbon whiskeys were fairly common. Four Roses was one in its Frankfort Distilling days, as was its companion brand Paul Jones. Old Forester started out that way, and as late as 1916 George Garvin Brown put his signature on a full page ad in The Wine and Spirit Bulletin attesting (in a 1907 affidavit) that from the time it was introduced by Chambers & Brown in 1874 until the then-present, Old Forester was and had always been a blend of old Kentucky whiskies. (The label also says "This whisky is bottled by us", not "distilled by us". You can see the ad at http://books.google.com/books?id=YwpQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA17&dq=old+forester+whisky+george+brown&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0EGIUo2aBKLV2AXW-4G4Bw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=old%20forester%20whisky%20george%20brown&f=false )

My own house pour is a blend I make of 2 parts Very Old Barton to 1 part Old Grand-Dad, both Bottled in Bond. Each definitely adds its own voice; the trick is getting the voices to sing in harmony. But that's the art of the blend, creating a whole that is better as a sum than are its individual parts.

Edited November 17, 2013 by shoshani

[squire]

Paul Jones, I'd forgotten about that one, quite popular in it's day. Mr. Jones was also the owner of the Ancient Age distillery and is the guy who gave Jim Rutledge his first job.

[Paddy]

Good article on craft distilling in todays Lexington Herald-Leader.

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/12/07/2976228/the-spirit-of-kentucky-boom-in.html

[squire]

Oh that's rich, the Michters guy saying another distillery sets aside time "on certain days, Michters is made there with our mash bill, our recipe". Well just how do you 'make' a 20 year old whisky in a few days you ask? Simple, just pull some barrels of old stock from the warehouse, hang a d/b/a placard over the bottling line and that run is 'made' exclusively for one customer. Easy as pie, done all the time.

As for using their own mash bill and recipe, fortunately for Michters theirs happens to be the same as the one Heaven Hill was using anyway so no biggie.

[mbroo5880i]

In most industries, bubbles (or market tops) usually occur when you have a significant number of new entries into the production side of things. Supply always seems to trail demand. For example, I work in the steel industry. We have often seen market tops defined by significant capacity investments by both major and minor players. We saw the same thing in the early 2000s tech bubble. It is difficult to predict when the bubble will burst but the significant increase in players tells us that a down cycle is due. The problem is it could occur within a year or it may be within the next 10 years. My guess is not for another 5 years or so but it will happen.

[squire]

Yeah it happens, I remember when white wine became the rage and vintners were pulling up producing red grapes to replace them with white.

[callmeox]

I'm a big fan of transparency by micros (like this).

[Dolph Lundgren]

Agreed. SA and HW have always been very transparent. If you ever have a question about a particular SA release, just email them and they'll gladly dish about whats inside the bottle.

[wadewood]

Agreed. SA and HW have always been very transparent. If you ever have a question about a particular SA release, just email them and they'll gladly dish about whats inside the bottle.