How Close is OWA 107 to ORVW 107?

[Richnimrod]

I was invited by 'Squire' to post my results after tasting these two drams side-by-side. I stated my guess (untested as yet at the time) that Old Weller Antique 107 and Old Rip Van Winkle 107 might be essentially the same juice in different bottles, in the thread about what you've bought in Fall, '13. Well, here's my findings:

While I can't say unequivocally that they are the same stuff, I will say, after tasting the two side by side, that they are exceedingly similar. Granted, my palate is not as well-trained or discriminating as many of you folks, so please take this evaluation as just one man's opinion. The extra 3 or 4 years of aging didn't (IMHO) change the ORVW (10-years old by the label) very much compared to the OWA. Both were very aromatic, and sweet on the nose, as I find many wheaters to be. I did pick up a slight note of barrel char from the Old Rip that I didn't get from the OWA, and I picked up a very slight maple hint from the OWA, not noted in the Old Rip. The color, and the legs of each were identical (rich copper/amber with red highlights, medium-long and thin legs). The mouthfeel of each was a bit thin, but decent; very nearly identical with a smidgen of an edge to the Old Rip. I also found the OWA just a tad hotter to the tongue, but in only a very miniscule way. The balance of vanilla, toasted oak and slight brown sugar flavors was a little better in the Old Rip, which gave it a very slightly mellower quality. The finish of each was quite similar; both being about medium-to-long, and warm; with fading sweetness. I found both to have a slightly astringent quality in the mouth. Not uncommon in wheaters, in my experience. Soooooo, there you have it! I don't know that I'll purchase any more Old Rip (for almost $20 more), just to get the very minor differences that I detected. I don't KNOW that the mashbills are identical; but these two individual bottles certainly suggest they might be.

[mosugoji64]

Thanks for the review! Reports like these are what makes this forum so valuable. Those unable to obtain the ORVW can take comfort in knowing that something much more readily available may be just as enjoyable.

[Enoch]

I was invited by 'Squire' to post my results after tasting these two drams side-by-side. I stated my guess (untested as yet at the time) that Old Weller Antique 107 and Old Rip Van Winkle 107 might be essentially the same juice in different bottles, in the thread about what you've bought in Fall, '13. Well, here's my findings:

While I can't say unequivocally that they are the same stuff, I will say, after tasting the two side by side, that they are exceedingly similar. Granted, my palate is not as well-trained or discriminating as many of you folks, so please take this evaluation as just one man's opinion. The extra 3 or 4 years of aging didn't (IMHO) change the ORVW (10-years old by the label) very much compared to the OWA. Both were very aromatic, and sweet on the nose, as I find many wheaters to be. I did pick up a slight note of barrel char from the Old Rip that I didn't get from the OWA, and I picked up a very slight maple hint from the OWA, not noted in the Old Rip. The color, and the legs of each were identical (rich copper/amber with red highlights, medium-long and thin legs). The mouthfeel of each was a bit thin, but decent; very nearly identical with a smidgen of an edge to the Old Rip. I also found the OWA just a tad hotter to the tongue, but in only a very miniscule way. The balance of vanilla, toasted oak and slight brown sugar flavors was a little better in the Old Rip, which gave it a very slightly mellower quality. The finish of each was quite similar; both being about medium-to-long, and warm; with fading sweetness. I found both to have a slightly astringent quality in the mouth. Not uncommon in wheaters, in my experience. Soooooo, there you have it! I don't know that I'll purchase any more Old Rip (for almost $20 more), just to get the very minor differences that I detected. I don't KNOW that the mashbills are identical; but these two individual bottles certainly suggest they might be.

Excellent notes. I agree totally. I have a bottle of each and cannot consistently pick them.

[hn4bourbon]

I was invited by 'Squire' to post my results after tasting these two drams side-by-side. I stated my guess (untested as yet at the time) that Old Weller Antique 107 and Old Rip Van Winkle 107 might be essentially the same juice in different bottles, in the thread about what you've bought in Fall, '13. Well, here's my findings:

While I can't say unequivocally that they are the same stuff, I will say, after tasting the two side by side, that they are exceedingly similar. Granted, my palate is not as well-trained or discriminating as many of you folks, so please take this evaluation as just one man's opinion. The extra 3 or 4 years of aging didn't (IMHO) change the ORVW (10-years old by the label) very much compared to the OWA. Both were very aromatic, and sweet on the nose, as I find many wheaters to be. I did pick up a slight note of barrel char from the Old Rip that I didn't get from the OWA, and I picked up a very slight maple hint from the OWA, not noted in the Old Rip. The color, and the legs of each were identical (rich copper/amber with red highlights, medium-long and thin legs). The mouthfeel of each was a bit thin, but decent; very nearly identical with a smidgen of an edge to the Old Rip. I also found the OWA just a tad hotter to the tongue, but in only a very miniscule way. The balance of vanilla, toasted oak and slight brown sugar flavors was a little better in the Old Rip, which gave it a very slightly mellower quality. The finish of each was quite similar; both being about medium-to-long, and warm; with fading sweetness. I found both to have a slightly astringent quality in the mouth. Not uncommon in wheaters, in my experience. Soooooo, there you have it! I don't know that I'll purchase any more Old Rip (for almost $20 more), just to get the very minor differences that I detected. I don't KNOW that the mashbills are identical; but these two individual bottles certainly suggest they might be.

Great notes and information! Thanks for sharing!

[smknjoe]

Thanks for the notes nimrod. I have had similar results in side by side tastings with those 2 and I will add PVW 15 to that list. You should do a side by side of OWA, ORVW, and PVW15 (all current bottlings.) They are all very similar. Between the 3 I don't know if I could pick out any of them specifically other than the OWA and even then it would have to be a new bottle of OWA. The old OWA from about a decade ago and back could easily replace the other 2. I still prefer the 10yr. out of the currently produced BT wheaters (not including WLW - my favorite). Although, I can't say that it's worth 2 to 3 times the price of OWA.

Edited November 12, 2013 by smknjoe

[squire]

Good notes, well thought out and very clearly expressed. The mash bill would be the same though because BT was making contract whisky for SW (using their formula and yeast) years before the Van Winkle connection.

[Richnimrod]

Good notes, well thought out and very clearly expressed. The mash bill would be the same though because BT was making contract whisky for SW (using their formula and yeast) years before the Van Winkle connection.

[GaryT]

Great notes Rich, er Dad! I'm looking forward to doing this same comparison. On the one hand, ORVW was my first VW anything, and I remember my first bottle as being really special (and that was a 90 proofer!) May have just been romanced into those notions, but at the time I thought it stood out (note - this was just a couple years ago, so no "dusty" influence). And there's nothing wrong with enjoying a bottle more because of the bottle/label/name! But knowing if the nose/palate are very similar to something more readily available is great information to have!

[clingman71]

I find a 2/1 OWA/W12 ratio in the SB blend gets really close to Old Rip.

[hectic1]

Great notes there...I would certainly agree that there have been some OWA's bottled in the last couple years that would rival and even edge ORVW 10/107 and possibly Pappy 15...it's all the same bourbon just with different age on it. The OWA program used to have 9yr barrels available for selection and those were every bit as good IMO as the ORVW's that I have here.

[wadewood]

Great notes there...I would certainly agree that there have been some OWA's bottled in the last couple years that would rival and even edge ORVW 10/107 and possibly Pappy 15...it's all the same bourbon just with different age on it. The OWA program used to have 9yr barrels available for selection and those were every bit as good IMO as the ORVW's that I have here.

Agree with Bob; if you tried this comparison with the older age stated version of OWA (? 3-4 years ago) I think it would be very close. The current OWA is much younger; I would guess it's 5-6 years old.

Also, when you do this side by side tasting and notes, you should really try to do so blind.

[squire]

I threw a tasting for some guys while on a hunting trip some years ago and I swear before it was over some of them were near blind.

[Quantum]

Agree with Bob; if you tried this comparison with the older age stated version of OWA (? 3-4 years ago) I think it would be very close. The current OWA is much younger; I would guess it's 5-6 years old.

Also, when you do this side by side tasting and notes, you should really try to do so blind.

I did a blind tasting of OWA 7yr (from 08), OWA NAS, ORVW 10/107, and PVW 15 (from 12).

On the initial taste I could put them in order, but I though the 7yr was close to the NAS and 10/107. After I had tried all of them twice, the gap widened considerably. I picked the PVW 15 out on the first sip.

I had enjoyed all of these before, but I was surprised how much this highlighted their differences to me. The worst part was that I realized how much I really like the 10/107. When I tried each one of them head to head, it was the clear winner. If I had only done this a year or two earlier I could have stocked up, but now it is just as scarce as anything else with "Winkle" on the label. This was clearly the most depressing tasting I have ever done.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Quantum

[loki993]

Soooooo, there you have it! I don't know that I'll purchase any more Old Rip (for almost $20 more), just to get the very minor differences that I detected. I don't KNOW that the mashbills are identical; but these two individual bottles certainly suggest they might be.

$20 more IF you can find it at retail in a store thats not gouging. Around here its more like $60 more and for sure not worth it...

[smokinjoe]

Did the same comparison myself, just a bit ago. New VW and current OWA. Though, there is a familiarity in the two, I would take the VW in a landslide. The VW was much more richer and thicker, and had less alcohol burn early on, and significantly less rough edges over the palate. The OWA was noticeably thinner and younger tasting than the VW. In every phase, The VW shone as a superior whiskey to the OWA, IMO. For kicks, I then ran the VW up against an older OWA private selection, and the two were much closer in profile. But, compared to the current off-the-shelf OWA...No contest...

[WAINWRIGHT]

Did the same comparison myself, just a bit ago. New VW and current OWA. Though, there is a familiarity in the two, I would take the VW in a landslide. The VW was much more richer and thicker, and had less alcohol burn early on, and significantly less rough edges over the palate. The OWA was noticeably thinner and younger tasting than the VW. In every phase, The VW shone as a superior whiskey to the OWA, IMO. For kicks, I then ran the VW up against an older OWA private selection, and the two were much closer in profile. But, compared to the current off-the-shelf OWA...No contest...

This is absolutely spot on and the barrel influence is much more apparent,but as sweet wood and not overly sooty like in the current W12. Edited November 17, 2013 by WAINWRIGHT

[MyOldKyDram]

Doesn't seem like it would be that close to me, although I've never done a sbs. But I mean, there's a 4 yr age dif were talking about here. Maybe I'll try the two together when I get back home.

[smknjoe]

Try it with an OWA from pre-2006 if you can. You can tell a difference between the two, but the gap is much narrower than with the current NAS (which I still enjoy, just not as much as the older stuff.)

[shoshani]

Well, I have a different, yet practical answer: OWA is about half the price of ORVW, but most of the time I can't find ORVW for love nor money. That pretty much settles it for me.

[Richnimrod]

UPDATE, guys and gals....

I just took another look at the bottles I used for this SBS and realized the OWA I used to do this SBS was a barrel selection from the Brass Mug in Livonia, MI. SORRY! :shocked:

(I had done a SBS between ordinary off-the-shelf OWA, back in the Summer, and found it to be slightly superior in all facets).... so, the 'regular' OWA is likely a bit more different from Old Rip than what I found in this SBS (Likely less dynamic, eh?).

Again: SORRY! :bigeyes:

[nd2005]

Did the same comparison myself, just a bit ago. New VW and current OWA. Though, there is a familiarity in the two, I would take the VW in a landslide. The VW was much more richer and thicker, and had less alcohol burn early on, and significantly less rough edges over the palate. The OWA was noticeably thinner and younger tasting than the VW. In every phase, The VW shone as a superior whiskey to the OWA, IMO. For kicks, I then ran the VW up against an older OWA private selection, and the two were much closer in profile. But, compared to the current off-the-shelf OWA...No contest...

[sailor22]

So what makes VW special - if it is.

Other than age what are the differences between VW and Weller?

Is the yeast the same? - tastes like it.

Is the mashbill the same? - taste leads us to believe it's very close is not the same.

Are the grains sourced from the same places? - not a clue.

Is production technique the same? - I'm guessing yes.

Are the barrels themselves the same? - my best guess is probably.

So, given that so much is the same would most of the difference come down to what warehouses and what part of the warehouse they are aged in? - probably.

Besides age isn't the difference in taste between BT labels that have the same mash bill a function where they were aged? - yep, thats what BT says.

Is there a location(s) in warehouses that are reserved for Van Winkle barrels? - I dunno, might be good question to ask Julian.

Sounds like location MIGHT be enough to define VW as a premium. But would sure like to hear Harlan and Julian's thoughts on it.

[Brisko]

Are the barrels themselves the same? - my best guess is probably.

This is one that I wonder about. They could easily be using cooperage that is air-seasoned longer. Could be partially toasted too, or at least charred differently.

[jburlowski]

The VW products use the exact same mashbill, yeast, production processes, and barrels that are used for the other BT wheated bourbons. The only differences are the impact of warehouse location and/or barrel selection.

And, of course, the marketing hype.

[squire]

According to comments made here or there by Julian and Harlen the only difference is warehouse location. I'm not saying best of the best, not by any means, just that they know where the barrels are that fit the VW profile.