Weller 12 Age Statement

[squire]

Taking up on a mention on the Barton thread. There is some thought that Weller 12 may be the next victim of losing an age statement but I think not. The 'same as Pappy' line is increasingly being used at the retail level and that's understandable. Also beneficial to BT who may now see more demand (profit) for Weller 12 and there's no need to artificially restrict the supply.

[brettckeen]

If it runs out for a while, it runs out, then when it comes back retailers will sell it quick and wait for the next drop. So on and so fourth. But I think the concern comes from age statements falling off wsr and owa

[TunnelTiger]

So what are the odds that all age statements on bottom and middle shelves are gone by this time next year?

[PaulO]

I hope Weller 12 year old keeps being released.

[squire]

So what are the odds that all age statements on bottom and middle shelves are gone by this time next year?

It does appear their time has passed. Years ago, before the internet, comparisons were made directly on the shelves. Wild Turkey was 8 years old so Old Grand Dad had to be 8 year age stated as well. In order to compete with the Turkey other brands like Eagle Rare not only had to be 101 proof but a slightly higher 10 years of age. If Yellowstone was 7 years and 90 proof then Evan Williams black label had to be the same. 1783 at 10 years 86 proof matched against Old Charter 10/86 and AAA 10/86.

Bottled in Bond, age and proof mattered in direct comparison. Not that they don't matter still, just less so because anyone with a computer and the interest can visit here and in a few weeks learn more than they could have on their own in years of trial and error. An increasing well informed customer base may be the driving force in the future.

Modern producers have to wrestle not with just what and how much to make today to sell years down the road but how that product will be marketed as well. A decade ago rye sales were moribund and today they can't bottle it fast enough. Rye may be in surplus five years from now when the public decides small batch is preferable to single barrel.

So if Weller 12 remains and gains in popularity it may well stay without change.

[ryanc]

I'm new to this...but it appears to me that dropping the age statements is going to lead to the bubble bursting. Dropping the age for everyone to see, seems to strip the soul from the juice inside. Holding a bottle that says 12 years vs just some arbitrary number may not make a difference now...but I see this as the straw that broke the camels back...eventually. Not a fan of Scotch...but they appear to not have sold their soul to cheapen their product..but alas...this is America.

[mbroo5880i]

There is something to be said for differentiating your product from the masses.

[squire]

Yes, the Scots have keep age statements but that's not altruism on their part, just good business. They have perfected the art of getting higher prices for longer age statements. On the other hand they have shamelessly cheapened and debased even their best known blends by using increasingly younger whiskys.

[theglobalguy]

Yes, the Scots have keep age statements but that's not altruism on their part, just good business. They have perfected the art of getting higher prices for longer age statements. On the other hand they have shamelessly cheapened and debased even their best known blends by using increasingly younger whiskys.

Macallan swapped out to colours this year, have read both sides of the "sales plummeted" and "they can't keep in stock".

On the W12 front, if it's out of stock all the time and hoarded as soon as it shows up....doesn't really matter what the age is does it?

[393foureyedfox]

I think Beam handled it best a few years ago with the Knob Creek shortage.

Announce shortages, but also announce that you will not compromise your product. The honesty will keep the customers. Most companies wouldve dropped the age statement to 8 years, or 7 years. However, they also wouldve kept them at the lower age statement permanently once the shortage was fixed. Beam held to their standard and respected the consumer. No tricks, no dishonesty, just straight-forward handling of a short term dilemma. Others could take a lesson here....

[GaryT]

I'd hate to see W12 drop the age statement, but with increased popularity - they may also decide that they could sell a boatload more if they could make more quickly (and the only way to make more quickly is dropping the age statement). That might be short-sighted, but if the larger masses buying don't value the age statement (and if it tastes "close enough"), it could evolve into a higher volume brand potentially. They're in it to make money, so I'm sure someone is calculating all that.

[mbroo5880i]

PaulO had mentioned in another thread that dropping the age statement would essentially make it the same as WSR with a slightly higher proof. Does it make sense to make two products with the same mashbill only 4 proof points apart? I know other brands do but you have to wonder.

[PaulO]

If it runs out for a while, it runs out, then when it comes back retailers will sell it quick and wait for the next drop. So on and so fourth. But I think the concern comes from age statements falling off wsr and owa

Ever since we have had it locally, that's how it's been. I don't see any most of the time. Years before W12 was available in Indiana, I bought some in Chicago. These were the bottles with the embossed wheat. That stuff was spectacular. Some one told me it may have been made by Bernhiem.

[PaulO]

PaulO had mentioned in another thread that dropping the age statement would essentially make it the same as WSR with a slightly higher proof. Does it make sense to make two products with the same mashbill only 4 proof points apart? I know other brands do but you have to wonder.

I believe WSR and W12 are both 90 proof. To me, the age statement is the identity of W12. Otherwise it would be - here's slightly older WSR, we'll just call it "12".

[squire]

Old No. 7 and Old No. 12, different color labels of course.

[portwood]

Not a fan of Scotch...but they appear to not have sold their soul to cheapen their product..

If you have been following Scotch blogs/forums you would realize the Scotch industry isn't as altruistic as you think. They have also been dropping age statements - it could be argued they started the trend and the American whiskey industry has caught on to the strategy.

Yes, the Scots have keep age statements but that's not altruism on their part, just good business. They have perfected the art of getting higher prices for longer age statements. On the other hand they have shamelessly cheapened and debased even their best known blends by using increasingly younger whiskys.

As Squire points out, what the Scotch industry has been doing of late is dropping age statements at the lower end (i.e. 12 years and younger) but KEEPING the older age statements. What is also true is that today's bottle of 18* year old Scotch is unlikely to contain much - if any - stock that is more than 18 years of age, whereas prior to the late 2000's a bottle of 18yo would likely contain a considerable amount of whisky that was much older than 18.

*or substitute any number for the age...

Edited December 29, 2013 by portwood

[Gillman]

A new thread should be created to address the following questions:

1) Why is it desirable that whiskey be aged?

2) Why does the public associate quality in (some) spirits with long age, is that logical?

3) Do all types of whiskey benefit equally from longer aging?

4) What is an optimal age for bourbon, 4 years old, 6, 8, 12?

5) If the answer to no. 4 is, it varies, what is the age of bourbon sought by the "typical" consumer?

6) Do current NAS products hit the sweet spot of no. 5) above?

Gary

[mosugoji64]

I think this apparent race to the bottom by bottling younger whiskey may hasten the end of the Bourbon bubble. I understand that the distillers need to do something to keep up with demand but if quality declines newcomers will likely wonder what the fuss was all about. It seems to me the distillers may be shooting themselves in the foot.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

[WAINWRIGHT]

Gary struck some very valid points and as age increases the percentage of those barrels are harder to select to meet a given profile.

[White Dog]

A new thread should be created to address the following questions:

1) Why is it desirable that whiskey be aged?

2) Why does the public associate quality in (some) spirits with long age, is that logical?

3) Do all types of whiskey benefit equally from longer aging?

4) What is an optimal age for bourbon, 4 years old, 6, 8, 12?

5) If the answer to no. 4 is, it varies, what is the age of bourbon sought by the "typical" consumer?

6) Do current NAS products hit the sweet spot of no. 5) above?

Gary

Number four should differentiate between Wheaters and Rye-recipe. Too often people make blanket statements that any Bourbon over the age of 10 is too woody, without taking into account the two different categories.

[squire]

Very good points, so comprehensive in fact I've start new threads on 1-4, all of which deserve their own topic.

[mbroo5880i]

I believe WSR and W12 are both 90 proof. To me, the age statement is the identity of W12. Otherwise it would be - here's slightly older WSR, we'll just call it "12".

Right you are! I was thinking EC12.

[thurst63]

better stock up on your go to cheap age statement bourbon of 10+ years,a lot seam to be going by the way side,moving them barrel to the high dollar stuff

[thurst63]

like what you think they are going to do with all the ancient ancient age 10yr bourbon,since disco,moving that stuff up town

[393foureyedfox]

better stock up on your go to cheap age statement bourbon of 10+ years,a lot seam to be going by the way side,moving them barrel to the high dollar stuff

as well as all the cheap age stated stuff of less than 10 years. EW lost theirs a few years ago, as well as OWA. Barton just now. I keep saying HH 6 is probably not too far off. The few NDP's who offer cheap age stated bourbons (like Ezra 7/101) will probably also fall away soon as prices of bulk whiskey are bound to rise as well, and it will either reach a price point that is unsitable to them and they will d/c it, or they will have to raise prices to a point that people will slow or stop their buying of it.

point is, if you like it and you can get it, load up

dammit, I got into bourbon at the wrong time