Old Whisky, Young Women

[squire]

Causes middle aged guys to get divorced and buy a little red sports car. In the whisky world though, young-middle-old age gets into the question of which is optimal and why.

The traditional age statements are 4-6-8-10-12 years stated on the bottle, but how did we settle on those numbers?

[oke&coke]

I think even numbers just have a more mature sound to it, say 8 vs 7. Kinda like a store marking prices with $.99 instead of just saying a dollar or gas having that 9/10 of a cent at the end. Just me though.

[tylermke]

If bourbon is only able to be labeled as Straight after 4 years, then even numbers seem to be a logical starting point.

[smknjoe]

2 years for straight, 4 for BIB.

[tylermke]

2 years for straight, 4 for BIB.

Ah, that's right, Joe. It just it needs to be labeled if under 4 years, correct?

[oke&coke]

Ah, that's right, Joe. It just it needs to be labeled if under 4 years, correct?

Correct.

padpadpad.

[squire]

Yes, even numbers seem logical, though how many customers believed (some still do) Jack Daniels Old No. 7 brand 90 proof was seven years old. Then JD copycats Evan and Ezra hit the market in the late 1950s at 7 years and 90 proof.

[oke&coke]

Ya got me there. Kinda like Heinz 57 varieties.

I did just notice though that 2,4,6,8,10,12 are all single syllable #'s. Rolls off the tongue easier when said with "years old".

Some mind boggling thoughts this thread is producing here.

[ryanc]

I like how Bookers states an age then a month. I have a bottle of 7 year 3 month..some are aged longer..some are a little less. Probably not a big deal to some..but gives some appeal to me.

[mbroo5880i]

Yeah, the more you know about what you buy, the better you feel. When you spend $10 to $15 a bottle, some unknowns is one thing but when you are spending close to $50 a bottle you want to make sure that you are getting something that you like.

Of course, I am not sure that I ever asked a woman for her age statement. :bigeyes:

[squire]

I think Bookers has exactly the right approach to labeling. Would that 7/3 whisky been better if it was limited to a label that said 6 or 8? No, it was bottled as a single and that individual barrel hit the profile at 7/3.

[ryanc]

I think Bookers has exactly the right approach to labeling. Would that 7/3 whisky been better if it was limited to a label that said 6 or 8? No, it was bottled as a single and that individual barrel hit the profile at 7/3.

It has an appeal to it...has that uniqueness like the hand writing on the labels...that appeal that really sucked me into bourbon besides the taste of course. The first bottle of bourbon I ever purchased was WTKS...with the handwriting on it. I thought that was the neatest thing...so with Bookers and their age statement...I love it. Now as things get more generic its a little depressing.

[393foureyedfox]

I like how Bookers states an age then a month. I have a bottle of 7 year 3 month..some are aged longer..some are a little less. Probably not a big deal to some..but gives some appeal to me.

it somehow makes the whole 'single barrel' thing seem more realistic. I have a 7 year 3 monther right in front of me, and a Knob Creek Single Barrel 9 year right next to it. Both are Beams, both are single barrels, but the specific and variable age statement and proof statement make Bookers seem more of a true single barrel. Of course, Bookers is barrel proof and KCSB is not (about as close as you can get though)

[WhiskyRI]

I wonder if the incremental steps of years becoming the standard has to do with 'significant enough to notice' differences in flavor, on average, occurring. Going from 4 years to 6 years is a 50% increase in aging, 6 to 8 is a 33% increase in age, and so on with the older a bourbon gets the less of a percentage a single year makes. Which may be part of the reason why we don't see, or saw, a lot of regular bourbons with ages between 12 years and 18 years - the biggest exception that comes to mind is PVW15. And lately with the current bourbon bonanza the 18s have gone bye-bye, for now, so they can sell 20, 21 and older bourbons.

I like the EWSB approach of putting the barreled and bottled dates on the bottle - some bottles have 9 years and change and some are almost 11 years old. I forgot where I read it or heard it, but one distiller's rule of thumb was 10 summers was the magic number, for him.

[mbroo5880i]

I wonder how much taxes on barreled whiskey factors into the decision-making.

[jburlowski]

I wonder how much taxes on barreled whiskey factors into the decision-making.

In KY, the distillers pay an annual ad valorem tax on aging whiskey. As much as they (publically and loudly) piss and moan about it, it is a (relatively) minor part of their cost structure.

[squire]

I wonder how much taxes on barreled whiskey factors into the decision-making.

Quite a lot. Up until the mid 1950s the bonding period was 8 years so distillers used techniques to create Bourbon that was fully mature in time to get it bottled and sold before it was eight years old. In fact that's what determined the taste profile of the brands we enjoy today. If you sold your whisky at 4-6 years the taxes were collected from the customer and didn't have to come out of your pocket. That's why Pappy bottled Weller Antique at 7 years old. Of course some barrels were aged 8 or longer, it was just a business decision to pay the tax out of your own account then suffer further evaporation loss as the whisky continued to age.

During WW11 there were grain shortages and the government mandated distillerys convert over to making industrial alcohol for the war effort. I read somewhere it took something like 200 gallons of alcohol to manufacture all the components and make one transport truck. Don't know it that's correct but Kentucky distillers were caught up in the effort and didn't get back to making Bourbon full time until after the war.

It was about 1951 before the new Bourbon was 4 years old and then Korea was on the horizon so the distillers ramped up production anticipating more wartime grain shortages or distilling limitations. That didn't happen though and by the mid 1950s the major producers had a surplus of whisky on hand that was approaching the 8 year bonding limit.

Schenley led the charge in Congress and the bonding law was extended to 20 years, so the unsold surplus whisky could continue aging until the producers found a use for it. They did, the circumstances gave rise to 8 year old age statements on even mid shelf stuff.

Whisky was my second discovery in the 1960s (the first was girls) and the hierarchy was clear. The top stuff was 8 years 100 proof, (usually BIB), then 6-7 year 86-90 proof, followed by 4 year 86 proof. Even the blends were 86 proof but we didn't pay much attention to them. The desirability of a label was determined by brand, price, age and proof. I won't say the 10-12 year or older expressions were common but they were around, usually during the holidays.

In short, taxes shaped the manufacturing process, age, flavor and profile of Bourbon, and to a large extent still does.

[theglobalguy]

Squire, would the same apply regarding taxes when were mostly talking large multinationals? They likely have tax departments, complicated software and transfer pricing from USA to Intl divisions which shield them.

Isn't like Beam, BF, Sazerac, etc need to hurry up and bottle younger to make payroll.

[squire]

To be Bourbon it must be made here and anything made here is taxed here.

Since the bonding period is 20 years I should think the decision on when to bottle is purely a business one.

[mbroo5880i]

Squire, very interesting! Thank you for the history and providing a better understanding of how taxes affect decisions with respect to aging whiskey!

[soad]

"Old Whisky, Young Women"

I once had a dream I was drinking Pappy 20 in the company of a 19 year-old bombshell. I awoke with a glass of 7 year-old Weller in my hand and my 6 year-old daughter screaming in my face.....

[oke&coke]

"Old Whisky, Young Women"

I once had a dream I was drinking Pappy 20 in the company of a 19 year-old bombshell. I awoke with a glass of 7 year-old Weller in my hand and my 6 year-old daughter screaming in my face.....

Still, beats out day old shine and a 1yo with a poopy diaper.

[black mamba]

For both whisky and women I refer to W.C. Fields:

"When I drink whisky, I drink whisky, and when I drink water, I drink water."

"I'd rather have two women of 21 each, than one woman of 42."

[393foureyedfox]

For both whisky and women I refer to W.C. Fields:

"I'd rather have two women of 21 each, than one woman of 42."

The 'crazy' is usually gone out of them by 42 though. some age does wonders for both