Sour Mash Bill

[The Good Sir]

About a year ago I purchased a bottle of Baker's and wasn't very impressed with it, especially for the price...$40. It sat on my bar and every couple of months I would go back to it. Each time I would find myself enjoying it more and more. Whether it was me or the bourbon or both, I'm not sure. But this got me thinking more about mash bills as I never really gave much more of a thought other than percentages of corn, rye and wheat. I know it's far more complex. I say all of this to ask, what exactly is a sour mash bill like the one in Bakers?

Thanks in advance.

[squire]

Beam only has two mashbills for Bourbon, the Old Grand Dad/Basil Hayden recipe and a second mashbill for the other brands.

[mbroo5880i]

A great resource...the Whiskey Tree from our very own Josh.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?15005-Whiskey-Tree/page19

[393foureyedfox]

Beam only has two mashbills for Bourbon, the Old Grand Dad/Basil Hayden recipe and a second mashbill for the other brands.

while i can taste the family resemblance between KCSB and Booker's, I have the hardest time believing (though i know its true) that JBW/JBB share the same recipe as these.

This alone proves to me what age and selection can do for a bourbon/whiskey

[squire]

When you make 1500 barrels a day there's alot to choose from.

[Kpiz]

what exactly is a sour mash bill like the one in Bakers?

The other fellas answered you pretty well about mashbills, but you seem to also be asking about the sour mash process, which is a separate thing than mashbill. Mashbill refers to the grains used, while sour mash refers to the way the mash is started. Sour mash means that some backset from the prior batch is used to start the current batch, and there are numerous reasons for doing so, which are explained pretty well here by Denver Distiller: http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1550&page=2. The alternative is sweet mash, which I think just means that each batch begins anew without the aid of byproducts from prior mashes/distillations

[GaryT]

To build upon squire and 393foureyedfox's points - mashbill is only one factor, and I'm always amazed at the differences between bourbons that are of the same mashbill (and even a similar age!) Where it is aged in the warehouse will make a huge difference. I think Beam had an illustration on their tour that showed where they pull certain brands from the rickhouse. And as squire mentioned, when you've got that much stock to select from, you can find enough to fit the profile of several brands.

[Richnimrod]

Kpiz explained the main difference between 'sour' and 'sweet' mash processes. He used the term "backset". That just means some of the fermented, but 'not-yet-distilled' mash from a previous batch... in case you didn't understand that term. Almost all major brands of Bourbon use the "sour mash" process. It allows more consistency from batch to batch, thus making it easier to keep the preferred taste profile for the brand being produced.

[Flyfish]

There are numerous variables that account for the differences in bourbons from the same mash bill. The chief variable is still probably you. The Baker's may have evolved slightly in the course of a year (though probably not very much) but it is quite possible that your palate evolved more after a year than the Baker's did. That's why I try to withhold judgment until I have sampled at least a half bottle. Experience tells me that it is quite likely that I will like it better and better as I go along so I try to be patient.

[mbroo5880i]

One of the members of this forum told me about a local retailer, who selected two barrels of the same bourbon for a private selection that had aged for the same period of time, side-by-side in the same rickhouse, yet ended up with significantly different profiles. It wasn't like one was bad because they ended up purchasing both barrels.

It is fun trying bourbons produced with the same mash bill but stored or aged differently. I recently did this with BT mashbill #2. I found many similarities in taste but also some noticeable differences.

[The Good Sir]

The other fellas answered you pretty well about mashbills, but you seem to also be asking about the sour mash process, which is a separate thing than mashbill. Mashbill refers to the grains used, while sour mash refers to the way the mash is started. Sour mash means that some backset from the prior batch is used to start the current batch, and there are numerous reasons for doing so, which are explained pretty well here by Denver Distiller: http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1550&page=2. The alternative is sweet mash, which I think just means that each batch begins anew without the aid of byproducts from prior mashes/distillations

Thank you. While the previous answers were very insightful, this is the one I was seeking. I should have been more clear in my question. I was aware of the process of using backset (I home brew beer) but never realized it was referred to as Sour Mash. Learn something everyday!

[DrBob]

. That's why I try to withhold judgment until I have sampled at least a half bottle. Experience tells me that it is quite likely that I will like it better and better as I go along so I try to be patient.

This is why I always save my tasting notes on a bottle until its at about 1/3d full. Then I take my notes and bring the last bit to share out at a weekly meeting with friends.

[White Dog]

Sorry, but I can't delete this post

Edited January 1, 2014 by White Dog

[squire]

So what does a distillery use for back set when they come back from being down for maintenance? They borrow some from another distillery that is already running.

Edited January 1, 2014 by squire

[tmckenzie]

They use a water mash. Instead of thinning the mash with backset or thinset it is called sometimes, they add water. This is sweet mash. I am told makers mark will not make a water mash, they borrow stillage. All distillers who sour mash have to make either a water mash at some point or back off the thinset say halfway and add water. Things will build up in the mash like acetic acid hindering the yeast. You can tell when you need to do it. Us for example, set our mash between 4 and 4.5. Usually 4.5, when you start hitting around 4 or even 3.9, you neeed to back off and add water. The ph we run is really low, more like they used to run. Sour in KY is now 5.