NDP Contradictions/Hypocracy

[smknjoe]

The majority of active users here often state that NDPs are not a good value either because you don't know what you are getting, they are overpriced, are repackaged versions of other house brands, are sub-standard barrels from known distilleries, or some combination of those reasons. On the other hand, the most coveted bottles in the bourbon/rye world seem to be from NDPs (PVW, Rathskeller, VWFRR, Willett, Hirsch, Black Maple Hill, Red Hook, etc.) The most confusing to me is Willett. It seems like most members really love Willett, but will knock Rowan's Creek, Noah's Mill, and other offerings from the same NDP (KBD.)

If I didn't know any better I would say that it has to do with the rarity of the bottle more than anything else. What do you guys think?

[nd2005]

The majority of active users here often state that NDPs are not a good value either because you don't know what you are getting, they are overpriced, are repackaged versions of other house brands, are sub-standard barrels from known distilleries, or some combination of those reasons. On the other hand, the most coveted bottles in the bourbon/rye world seem to be from NDPs (PVW, Rathskeller, VWFRR, Willett, Hirsch, Black Maple Hill, Red Hook, etc.) The most confusing to me is Willett. It seems like most members really love Willett, but will knock Rowan's Creek, Noah's Mill, and other offerings from the same NDP (KBD.)

If I didn't know any better I would say that it has to do with the rarity of the bottle more than anything else. What do you guys think?

Yeah I have issues with a lot of the KBD stuff.

BMH built a rep based on (a) some truly outstanding age stated releases, and ( a rash of articles declaring them the "Next" PVW. Now they can barely scrape together enough bourbon to release a few cases every 3 months of non-age stated (and anecdotally increasingly young tasting) product. They also have tried to increase their MSRP to ~60 per bottle.

Noah's Mill dropped the 15 year age statement and the newer bottlings taste nothing like the older ones.

Rowan's creek I never found to be that good.

As for Willett - at least all the bottles are age stated. And just going on taste buds alone I've really liked the three bottles I've purchased, as well as the couple other older ones I've sampled in bars. They seem to at least be making an effort to "go legit" too with distilling their own stuff.

I wish KBD would just cut the obfuscative brands like Rowan's etc and focus on the Willett name. But I guess there are people out there looking for them...so it's hard to blame them when they can sell non-age stated sourced bourbons for ~$50 per bottle.

/End of rant.

[DrBob]

NDP'S certainly can be good, my main knock is on new small distilleries claiming it as their own, and overcharging. A lot of these bottles taste very similar (LDI). I think what I would most like to see is mandatory source information on bottles, at least then you can make a better guess as to the contents.

I also think if its your recipe/method, but someone else is making, that its a little different than buying bulk barrels, adding some local water or aging, and calling it your own.

[smknjoe]

That's the kind of reasoning that I don't understand. So, they used to have or currently have an age statement. So what? You still don't know where it came from (which seems to be the number one reason why people don't like NDPs.)

[Clavius]

I think what I would most like to see is mandatory source information on bottles, at least then you can make a better guess as to the contents.

[Harry in WashDC]

It's more a truth in labeling issue with me. For example, several years ago a bartender friend gave me (& some other regular brown spirits drinkers) free tastes of Rendezvous Rye both neat & in cocktails. We liked it so she started carrying it. Some other NDP products failed their tests. Some tasted just OK, but at $50+ retail, we all passed them by.

In short, I like to know the spirit's provenance and likely characteristics (which is a major reason I browse SB's forums) before buying a bottle. Also, as long as JBB, VOBBIB, WT101, & even 4RSmB, etc., are comparatively inexpensive, the NDPs won't be my go-to. BTW, just what DOES "Estate Bottled" on Old Bardstown mean?

That said, if a NDP product tastes good to me, I'll buy it and drink it.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Harry in WashDC

[nd2005]

That's the kind of reasoning that I don't understand. So, they used to have or currently have an age statement. So what? You still don't know where it came from (which seems to be the number one reason why people don't like NDPs.)

[tylermke]

Completely agree on that note. I've noticed that a lot of bourbons have the DSP number on the case the bottles come in but obviously not on the bottles themselves. Would be great to see the DSP number required on the bottle itself, imho.

[Brisko]

I have no great love for KBD but cut them a little slack. When they started there was a fair amount of well-aged bourbon and rye around: barrels that the big guys didn't really have a use for (even today most master distillers are reluctant to sell old whiskey although that is changing). Some of it just didn't match existing profiles, others (like some of the famous ryes) were distilled on contract and then never fulfilled. KBD made a business out of targeting what was a very small market with these extra-aged products, and the big guys were just happy to get rid of the stock.

Fast forward to today. KBD's well has dried up, but they still have to sell something, especially if they want to ever see their own make come to market. I don't think they have a choice.

[squire]

The reputation for Black Maple Hill was established by Julian Van Winkle when he was selecting the barrels and doing the contract bottling for this brand which was and still is owned by a company in California. After Julian teamed up with Buffalo Trace the contract went to KBD (Willett) and the stuff they bottle now is nothing like the gems Julian put out but he did such a good job the brand still has some buzz.

I was introduced to Willett some decades back when I was in Toddy's Liquor store in Bardstown. Grabbing a hand full of KBD/Willett brands to round out my third case I was asked why those, to which I responded I didn't have a particular reason, just wasn't familiar with them.

Laughing out loud the guys told me to put the Willett back because it was "exactly the same whisky" as the Heaven Hill brands on the shelf next to them that sold for 1/3 the price of the Willett.

I have more than one objection to the approach taken by Willett or other NDPs but my primary one is I refuse to be cheated. When you hide sourced whisky in a fancy bottle and try to sell it to me pretending it's something special that deserves a premium price then you are trying to cheat me and that is something up which I will not put.

[Tony Santana]

I agree the bait and switch is an issue that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, but ultimately I'm in the "as long as it tastes good" camp, at least as long as they're not gouging me too badly on price. I've had a couple bottles of Rowan's Creek and enjoyed them both very much; not too expensive, so I'll keep going back unless/until I get burned. I've tried Noah's Mill a couple of times and was underwhelmed. Weird, since that's supposed to be the better (and certainly the more expensive) of the two. Can't imagine ever buying a bottle. The BMH I've had - and it wasn't the black label/at least 16 year bottlings - has been uniformly good. At $40 I might splurge on a bottle now and then. At $60 I wouldn't.

Some are more transparent than others. I've now had three different High West products and really liked all of them. They may not tell you the exact blend ratio, but don't seem to be too shy about the details of what's in their blends. I've enjoyed every Smooth Ambler product I've tried, given that track record I'm looking forward to when they start putting out their own distillate. I feel better taking a chance with SA or HW than most of the others.

[squire]

. . . . I think the main reason against it is that the NDP would have to change labels once the source changed. I don't know how often that happens for a particular brand, but I'm guessing it could be a very expensive headache for some labels.

[luther.r]

I agree that I'd like to know more about the provenance of the distillate (tequila is required to do this by putting a NOM on the bottle; NDP tequila producers just use small NOM stickers for the different batches).

What I DO like about Willett Family Estate is that they bottle at barrel proof and with age statements, which is what so many of us wish the regular producers would do more of. Sure, it may be HH in many of the bottles, but show me where I can buy a bottle of 18 year single honey-barrel HH at barrel proof, other than from KBD.

[squire]

NDPs don't get to walk through the maker's warehouse selecting honey barrels, they bid on lots like everybody else.

[luther.r]

NDPs don't get to walk through the maker's warehouse selecting honey barrels, they bid on lots like everybody else.

[Harry in WashDC]

NDPs don't get to walk through the maker's warehouse selecting honey barrels, they bid on lots like everybody else.

[PaulO]

The good thing about knowing about NDPs is; when I go into a store, I can ignore a lot of flashy stuff. The one NDP item I get sometimes is rye from LDI. There seems to be a consistent supply. My experience with Jefferson 10 on the on the other hand, my second bottle was quite different from the first. When I tried Old Bardstown years ago, it did taste a lot like HH. Mostly I stay away from NDPs.

[squire]

I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head Harry.

I would suggest though that the Master Distiller and Master Blenders are back at the distillery who made the product and the NDPs (Whistlepig) just bottle what they get, or, in the case of brands like Black Maple Hill, which is owned by a guy in California who operates out of his house and keeps the stock in his garage, hire someone else like KBD to do the bottling.

[GaryT]

I subscribe to the "If I like it and think it worth the money, I'll buy it." There are some Henry McK 1Bs that were amazing . . . and some real duds (although this can happen from the distiller produces as well with a 1B type product). I missed Johnny Drum Private Stock when it was age stated, but have enjoyed every bottle I've bought, and didn't think it was overpriced. I love WFE Ryes as a rule - there is this gap from the BIBs that isn't closed until you get to a barrel proofer, and for $35 a 110 proofer fits that market segment nicely.

If it weren't for KBD, we might never have had those lovely old DougDog ryes. For that alone, I'm happy to have them

Oh - and the downslide of BMH isn't KBD's fault in the least. They sell and bottle that for CVI, but don't create their products or marketing plans. Blame the folks in California for that one if you want

Edited January 26, 2014 by darylld911

[callmeox]

People embrace the classic NDP bottlings like Rathskeller, Red Hook, the DougDog ryes and the VW lines because we knew the source of the whiskey and we knew the people who selected the barrels for bottling.

Every one of the Willet estate bottles in my bunker was selected by someone that I know and who told me the source of the whiskey before I made the purchase. I've not picked any blindly off the shelf.

Generally the source of the VW stuff has become fuzzy and I believe the demand for these bottles by folks who have been around a while has waned and more recent bourbon fans have driven the madness.

Calling people hypocrites ignores the fact that being in the know made selections easier. There is much more obfuscation now which, for me, makes me question NDP's more.

[smknjoe]

People embrace the classic NDP bottlings like Rathskeller, Red Hook, the DougDog ryes and the VW lines because we knew the source of the whiskey and we knew the people who selected the barrels for bottling.

Every one of the Willet estate bottles in my bunker was selected by someone that I know and who told me the source of the whiskey before I made the purchase. I've not picked any blindly off the shelf.

Generally the source of the VW stuff has become fuzzy and I believe the demand for these bottles by folks who have been around a while has waned and more recent bourbon fans have driven the madness.

Calling people hypocrites ignores the fact that being in the know made selections easier. There is much more obfuscation now which, for me, makes me question NDP's more.

In that context the desire/regard for these bottles makes a lot more sense and this is the kind of information I was hoping to get. Does this not happen anymore? Do you not know where it comes from anymore (that is my impression)? If not, then why is the Willett or Vintage 17-25yr. good, but JPS 17 (which we know the source of and it has an age statement) is still a bad buy or not considered as good? Are some of you still given information as to where your Willett came from?

[mbroo5880i]

I can only speak for what I have tried. I have tried Johnny Drum, Rowan's Creek, Willett Pot Still and Noah's Mill. None have matched the flavor of the WFEs that I have tried. It isn't just proof or being a single barrel because some of these are 100 proof and some are single barrel. I have also tried several BT and several Heaven Hill brands. None of these have matched the WFEs that I have tried. Note - I am not talking about the higher end products like BTAC or PHC.

While not confirmed, I do suspect that some of the WFE product was distilled by HH. What is interesting is that I find most HH products, except EC, to be average. I have not had the opportunity to try the HHSS. The only difference that I can determine is that the WFE barrels were purchased and possibly aged by Willett and then a private retailer selected the barrel that was bottled from a group of barrels. They were able to select the best, in their opinion, of those offered. My most recent bottles of WFE, one an 8-year and one a 9-year, both have HH characteristics. However, they have a flavor significantly better than anything that I have been able to get off the shelf from HH, including some of the "non-HH" brands like Henry McKenna. The closest that I have come to the WFE profile is blends of EBCP/EC12 and EBCP/EC18.

As with others, I would love to know where the product was distilled. However, even if I knew it were HH, I am not sure they offer a product other than something higher end or special production that matches the WFE products that I have purchased. I assume that as their stocks dwindle, some of the passed over barrels will make their way into WFE, or maybe not. I also assume some of these end up in the other products.

Do I blame the NDP for the lack of disclosure? Maybe, maybe not. They may not be allowed to legally disclose the source based on their purchase agreement.

I do not believe that it is contradictory to enjoy an NDP product nor hypocritical to prefer some of those products to others from the same NDP. I also do not believe that it is necessarily a preference for rarer bottles in preferring WFE to other KBD offerings. There is a reason they divert their best available bourbon to their namesake bourbon. Is the WFE produced today the same as that several years ago when they had stockpiles of great barreled whiskey? Probably not, but the same can also be said for the producers such as BT, WT, etc. Their product doesn't seem to be improving.

Edited January 27, 2014 by mbroo5880i

[Richnimrod]

Here's my two-cents worth:

The 'old' Noah's Mill was outstanding (to my palate). The newer stuff is far more ordinary, for whatever reason. The price has risen in almost inverse ratio to the quality, and pretty much left me behind; not wanting to be screwed (so to speak).

The only other NDP that I have much experience with is Ezra B Single Barrel. I've consumed several bottles which were lovely. Because of that, I bunkered another 5-bottles of newer vintage over the last few years. :skep: Maybe I should open and compare 'em to my only 'currently open' one (from about 2011), and see if they've dropped in quality. Of the ones I've tasted, from '10 & '11, they were all about the same: excellent. The newest ones in the bunker are from early '13.

[callmeox]

In that context the desire/regard for these bottles makes a lot more sense and this is the kind of information I was hoping to get. Does this not happen anymore? Do you not know where it comes from anymore (that is my impression)? If not, then why is the Willett or Vintage 17-25yr. good, but JPS 17 (which we know the source of and it has an age statement) is still a bad buy or not considered as good? Are some of you still given information as to where your Willett came from?

If you're picking your barrel at the distillery, you should have access to the barrels and the information on the barrel head. If you're getting samples shipped to you, you don't have the same access but we can assume that it is provided upon request.

It is up to those who selected the barrel if they want to share that information with you and there has to be some trust each way. You need to trust that they're telling the truth and they need to trust that you won't broadcast that information. I recall an issue here a number of years ago when a specific WFE selection was being touted as being of a special provenance in the forums and when word got out, the threads were sanitized upon request.

As far as whose bourbon KBD has in their warehouses, a long time member here has said "all majors except for one" and a signed NDA prevents him from saying which one.

[smknjoe]

Thanks again for the info Scott. That really does clear up the Willett conundrum for me nicely.