NDP Contradictions/Hypocracy

[garbanzobean]

This is one instance where I feel the Scottish Whisky industry has an advantage. While there are plenty of blends that do not state the provenance of their components, the Independent Bottling Industry is extremely well developed. While the IBs are not a 1 to 1 equivalent of the NDP industry in the U.S., they are similar. I like the fact that in general, the Independent Bottlers make a serious effort to explain the provenance of their offerings. As an example, I know that the Chieftain's Mortlach 16 I picked up awhile back was distilled in 1995, put into a sherry hogshead, and bottled in 2011. I know which barrel it came from, I know who bottled it, and I know that it is non-chill filtered, has no colorant added, and is cask strength. So in that respect, I get an amount of transparency that I'd never see in the bourbon industry. On the other hand, even crap NDP bourbon is pretty good (and relatively cheap), whereas you can pay quite a bit of money for some EXTREMELY terrible Independent bottlings. Or you can end up with an amazing experience that will likely never be repeated. Most often, you end up with something that is quite good and is quite different from what the distillery would ever do. The alchemist bottling of highland park 16 finished in calvados barrels that I am saving for a special occasion comes to mind.

Both systems have advantages and disadvantages, but I'd love to see bourbon NDPs list provenance and blending pedigree of the spirit. Frankly, it's cheap to change a label and would likely only matter to bourbon enthusiasts, whose goodwill has been shown to be extremely profitable.

[MauiSon]

I think the apparent hypocrisy is due to the dislike of common NDP practices, not NDP products in general. When you differentiate the two, the contradictions go away.

[393foureyedfox]

What I DO like about Willett Family Estate is that they bottle at barrel proof and with age statements, which is what so many of us wish the regular producers would do more of. Sure, it may be HH in many of the bottles, but show me where I can buy a bottle of 18 year single honey-barrel HH at barrel proof, other than from KBD.

This is exactly why WFE will be the only NDP I choose to buy in the future.

Richnimrod......pop open a recent Noahs Mill and that Ezra B and try em side by side. To me, theyre different proof points of the same source whiskey. I didnt care for either recently, see what you think

Edited January 27, 2014 by 393foureyedfox

[nd2005]

Right but the days of WFE releasing 18 year quality product are gone as well. The "newest" releases from their distillery are <10 years and I haven't tasted any of it to see how it stacks up to their earlier releases.

All you have to do is look at Eric's experience trying to select a couple of barrels to see how much of a clusterf*** WFE has become lately.

[wadewood]

NDPs are not a good value either because you don't know what you are getting, they are overpriced, are repackaged versions of other house brands, are sub-standard barrels from known distilleries, or some combination of those reasons.

You answered your own question and did not realize it All those points are valid and true. And to the rule there are exceptions, with the exception usually being when you know what you are getting because you or someone you trust was involved in selecting the barrels.

[michaelturtle1]

I only have problems with NDPs if they are trying to spin the product into something it is not... I hate that Templeton rye is incredibly misleading about the provenance of their whiskey along with many other micros that have aged NDP products that they try to spin off as their own by withholding information. I think the other big distinguishing factor with some NDPs is that they buy the whiskey young and age it in their own rickhouses.. Of all the new whiskeys I have tasted in the past 6 months, all the best ones have come out of Willetts rickhouses.

[Quantum]

That's the kind of reasoning that I don't understand. So, they used to have or currently have an age statement. So what? You still don't know where it came from (which seems to be the number one reason why people don't like NDPs.)

The number one thing I look for is consistency. I don't care if they call it Magic Moon Juice and claim it was aged on Pluto, as long as I can expect each bottle to fall within a reasonable flavor profile at the same quality level.

Age statements and distillery information don't guarantee consistency and quality, but they give us a little more of a baseline of what we can expect. You mentioned BMH, Noahs Mill and Rowans/Rollins Creek. I tried all of these early in my bourbon journey, then years later I found I didn't like them nearly as much. It wasn't until I found places like this and started reading and researching, that I realized what happened them. They dropped the age statement, started using lower quality juice, and now they don't taste as good. This happens to mystery labels, and it happens to major brands from major distilleries. It happens to labels that drop the age statement, it happens to labels that keep the age statement. We can make better assumptions about why this happened with labels like OWA, but that doesn't change the fact OWA and Rowans Creek both taste worse than they used to.

I definitely don't put any stock in the "don't buy XYZ, its the same as this stuff from Major Distiller over here". Being about the same age from the same distillery doesn't mean they taste the same. If KBD is only using the top 10% of barrels from each lot for a certain label, it is going to taste better than the HH equivalent that would have used the whole lot. It works the other way as well. If HH bottles the top 10% of a lot as PHC, it would taste better than if KBD bottled the whole lot as "Rollins Creek Select from Rob Parker".

I don't care where it comes from, I just want anything that has the same label to taste the same. I'll do as much testing as I need to, I just get tired of trying to hit a moving target.

[squire]

I understand your point Quantum but don't follow your reasoning. If an NDP used only 10% of a lot purchase for a certain brand how would that maintain a profile when the top 10% of the next lot has a completely different profile.

The truth is when you depend on purchased sources to stay in business you have to bottle what you can get.

[mbroo5880i]

Interesting blog post on Willett.

http://thebourbontruth.tumblr.com/post/74491235285/willett-wonka-a-ride-in-the-glass-elevator#notes

[smokinjoe]

Interesting blog post on Willett.

http://thebourbontruth.tumblr.com/post/74491235285/willett-wonka-a-ride-in-the-glass-elevator#notes

Unfortunately, I can never get more than half way through one of this guy's blog posts. I'll lay most of the blame on my lack of attention, and day-dreaming, but man is he wordy. Can you tell me how it ends?

[HighInTheMtns]

Unfortunately, I can never get more than half way through one of this guy's blog posts. I'll lay most of the blame on my lack of attention, and day-dreaming, but man is he wordy. Can you tell me how it ends?

Wordy, horrible grammar and spelling, unchecked vitriol... I have a hard time reading his posts as well.

[nd2005]

Wordy, horrible grammar and spelling, unchecked vitriol... I have a hard time reading his posts as well.

I slaved through it, although my eyes glazed over at several points.

Sounds like he drank the kook-aid pretty heavily. I found a number of his comments dubious - especially that Willett has been intentionally understating the age of their single barrels so that the "drop" in age will be less severe when they start releasing their own products.

Other things I could pull from the article

-Willett is now giving estimates of "mid year" to get the single barrel bottlings going again

-They are dropping the wax and the natural cork and going to a foil/synthetic

-They are ambitiously producing 6 different mash bills.

[mosugoji64]

Unless they're making two different 13% rye bourbons, he only listed five recipes:

• 20% Wheat
  
• 13% Rye
  
• 7% Rye
  

Rye will be:

• 51% Rye, 34% Corn and 15 Barley Malt
  
• 74% Rye, 11% Corn and 15% Barely Malt
  

Most of what they're distilling is the 13% mashbill. Regardless of whether it's five or six, I'm happy to see them experimenting and look forward to trying the results.

[nd2005]

There will be six mash bills, or recipes: two Rye and four Bourbon. The current LDI/MGP Rye they use...

Sixty precent of what they are making is bourbon: 72 percent corn, 13 percent Rye, 15%; Barley Malt recipe will be 2 to 1 over the others. There will be three other bourbons:

• 20% Wheat
  
• 13% Rye
  
• 7% Rye
  

Rye will be:

• 51% Rye, 34% Corn and 15 Barley Malt
  
• 74% Rye, 11% Corn and 15% Barely Malt
  

4 bourbons, 2 Ryes. See bolded above. Edited January 27, 2014 by nd2005

[MyOldKyDram]

Willett is the new Pappy, apparently. That was my biggest takeaway here.

[Quantum]

I understand your point Quantum but don't follow your reasoning. If an NDP used only 10% of a lot purchase for a certain brand how would that maintain a profile when the top 10% of the next lot has a completely different profile.

The truth is when you depend on purchased sources to stay in business you have to bottle what you can get.

[squire]

For a guy who's headline says don't drink the kool aid he certainly knows how to pour it.

Willett has always pretended to make the whisky they sell and you will still hear that line from their distributors, anything to make a buck. They even had the misjudgment (arrogance) to claim pot still on a label until they were outed and had to pull back saying they meant the shape of the bottle and didn't really mean a still at all. Yeah, right, sure.

Back in it's best days in the 1960s Willett made good but ordinary whisky that was not highly regarded. Now Drew says he can't even copy that because the climate and grains have changed. But he can make a superior whisky by slowly dribbling in water bit by bit as it's reduced in proof which is a feat equal to Jack's magic beans. Bet he can whip up a mean batch of kool aid as well.

[squire]

Willett is the new Pappy, apparently. That was my biggest takeaway here.

[squire]

That would assume they are able to get a consistent supply from their source(s).

[mosugoji64]

4 bourbons, 2 Ryes. See bolded above.

[sutton]

First I heard of "step-reduction" from barrel proof to bottle proof. Perhaps a topic for another thread - very interesting...

[squire]

Ok Mark, lets start one.

[WsmataU]

First I heard of "step-reduction" from barrel proof to bottle proof. Perhaps a topic for another thread - very interesting...

[Brisko]

Interesting blog post on Willett.

http://thebourbontruth.tumblr.com/post/74491235285/willett-wonka-a-ride-in-the-glass-elevator#notes

Check this out: "Until 2012, Willett bottled Whiskey for others that they bought from others...I suspect they still buy Whiskey from others (even with their own stills running)..."

Wow, this guy's a regular Woodward & Bernstein... or should that be Woodford & Bernheim

I know the BMH is tasting younger, but I'm pretty sure they're not bottling 2-year old bourbon.

[squire]

Sounds like his text was ghost written.