Black is Black

[squire]

We hear a fair amount of talk around here about "flippers" and "the secondary market" when in fact that's not it at all. There isn't any secondary market, or grey market for that matter, what we have is a Black Market with it's accompanying degrees of criminal activity.

So lets call a spade a spade, what flippers are doing is selling on an illegal Black Market and that's how I suggest we refer to it.

[TunnelTiger]

Agreed, I like the term 100!. Black Market Devils.

[squire]

Denizens of the Dark whose seedy activities shun the illuminating light of Day.

[PaulO]

I wonder two things about the black market. One, how much is counterfeit? With home brewing and home wine making supplies readily available, it's not hard to re-seal a bottle. Two, where does this stuff come from? What I mean is it seems fishey, like at least some bottles must get diverted directly to the black market.

[squire]

I doubt a counterfeiter would care what was in the bottle so long as it was a passing color. It's not like they're looking for repeat business.

[nd2005]

I wonder two things about the black market. One, how much is counterfeit? With home brewing and home wine making supplies readily available, it's not hard to re-seal a bottle. Two, where does this stuff come from? What I mean is it seems fishey, like at least some bottles must get diverted directly to the black market.

Aside from the absurd price, this is the main reason I'd never buy a bottle from any secondary source. All you have to do is look at the price empty bottles are pulling on Ebay and elsewhere to know that this is already happening on a pretty wide scale.

[squire]

I haven't been paying attention, are bottles of the correct shape moving as well?

[smknjoe]

I know it's a little OT, but I think "collectors" are causing supply issues as much or more than flippers. I've seen people buy 3 cases of something they have never tried just because they wanted to make sure they didn't miss out on the latest bourbon fad/trend.

[PaulO]

I figure, as long as the counterfeiter at least used something like the cheapest blended whiskey, naïve people would admire the label and convince themselves they like it.

[flahute]

Can the Buffalo Trace foil tops (used on the BTAC and Pappy line) be counterfeited? It seems pretty distinctive and hard to duplicate, but what do I know?

[squire]

I believe they could in fact pass off something like Makers to most consumers. Refilling posh labeled empty bottles with something equally old but not nearly so good is a scandal well known in the wine trade. I understand some high end restaurants destroy all vintage empties to prevent their being refilled.

[GaryT]

Can the Buffalo Trace foil tops (used on the BTAC and Pappy line) be counterfeited? It seems pretty distinctive and hard to duplicate, but what do I know?

I think it is hard to duplicate, but the cost of that investment in order to flip $15 bourbon for $300 - only takes a few successful scams to cover the cost. I have no doubt some of that takes place.

I do think there are different categories of participants though. For example, a true bourbon enthusiast who is dying to get their hands on something else, but simply can't afford to without participating in the black market and parting with something they purchased (and had every intention of consuming!) - versus those who purchase for the sole reason of turning a quick buck. Technically, they're no different, but this gets into the ethical gray area and how everyone's values are different (I'm sure some here see no issue in either case, and that's certainly their right). Ultimately, as long as no one is breaking into my crib to steal mine (whether flipping or consuming), to each their own.

[squire]

Live and let live works for me but I wouldn't want to have to try and convince a Judge.

[sutton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Kurniawan

If this guy could do it in a wine collectors market that is very sophisticated, it will happen/is happening in the PVW/BTAC etc market. Seriously, why does one sell an empty PVW bottle on EBay for $60? IMHO, jf you buy on the secondary market, you are really taking your chances.

"If they pay a penie or two pence more for the reddinesse of them..let them looke to that, a foole and his money is soone parted. "

[squire]

I've always wondered how did a fool get the money in the first place.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

Can the Buffalo Trace foil tops (used on the BTAC and Pappy line) be counterfeited? It seems pretty distinctive and hard to duplicate, but what do I know?

Someone with the specs and a contact in china could get them made rather easily.

Finding enough empty bottles to do it on a large scale would be the biggest challenge.

[B.B. Babington]

...Finding enough empty bottles to do it on a large scale would be the biggest challenge.

A challenge most of our forum members would happily take on.

[nd2005]

Can the Buffalo Trace foil tops (used on the BTAC and Pappy line) be counterfeited? It seems pretty distinctive and hard to duplicate, but what do I know?

I think (a) yes it can be copied and ( even if it can't be / isn't, the average person buying a flipped bottle probably wouldn't notice the difference

[theglobalguy]

Someone with the specs and a contact in china could get them made rather easily.

Finding enough empty bottles to do it on a large scale would be the biggest challenge.

Given the price range on the black market of some of the bottles being sold....large scale is relative. Wouldn't take more than 100 bottles to be in scary territory.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

Given the price range on the black market of some of the bottles being sold....large scale is relative. Wouldn't take more than 100 bottles to be in scary territory.

Organized crime wouldn't be interested in investing in something with such a low bottle yield.

[393foureyedfox]

Organized crime wouldn't be interested in investing in something with such a low bottle yield.

right, but a guy at home trying to pay for his own Pappy habit might find it lucrative

[dementedavenger]

We hear a fair amount of talk around here about "flippers" and "the secondary market" when in fact that's not it at all. There isn't any secondary market, or grey market for that matter, what we have is a Black Market with it's accompanying degrees of criminal activity.

So lets call a spade a spade, what flippers are doing is selling on an illegal Black Market and that's how I suggest we refer to it.

Can you explain the "accompanying degrees of criminal activity"?

[DBM]

I will happily be a criminal to purchase a bottle of whisky for a friend and sell it for the priced I paid. Oooooh, I'm a bad person, throw me in jail!

The "black market" exists because of ignorant, outdated laws, greedy businesses and big money flowing to lobbyists. I don't support any of those things.

I can understand not liking the effects of the secondary market, but trying to reinforce the stupidity and greediness of lawmakers and corporate America seems out of place.

[Wryguy]

Let's call a fig a fig, a trough a trough. Orange is the new black. Long live the orange market.

[jvd99]

Aside from the absurd price, this is the main reason I'd never buy a bottle from any secondary source. All you have to do is look at the price empty bottles are pulling on Ebay and elsewhere to know that this is already happening on a pretty wide scale.