Black is Black

[petrel800]

I know it's a little OT, but I think "collectors" are causing supply issues as much or more than flippers. I've seen people buy 3 cases of something they have never tried just because they wanted to make sure they didn't miss out on the latest bourbon fad/trend.

[393foureyedfox]

nothing wrong with bunkering, or grabbing yourself 3 cases........IF it's for your own consumption/parties/gifts/personal stash.

[WhiskyRI]

Flippers and the black market only exists because of the artificial constraints on the market. The way to solve it is if producers started charging true market value for their products - which in a way is what we've started to see. Of course we'll be just as upset if the BTAC suddenly started selling with an MSRP $200 or $300 - but the bottles are clearly worth that in the "black" market. Personally I think some of the angst over flipping and other things is the classic "I was here first, how dare you make my little secret popular and more expensive." Bourbon was way under-valued for a very a long time - which was an aspect many of us really liked and benefitted from. Now that the Bourbon industry is beginning to discover it's true/new value things are changing and it's uncomfortable for us, and for our wallets.

Personally I'm starting to explore other brown spirits like Armagnac and Rum which still have extraordinary values. I still love Bourbon but the days of being able to go to the store any time of year and pick up amazing bottles like the BTAC or WFE or PVW for $50 our $60 are long gone. The new normal is scary and those with the foresight to have bunkered large amounts will be drinking very well for quite some time. Those whose bunkers are small or non-existent will be forced to chase the ever diminishing stocks of great value bourbons or move onto something else

[393foureyedfox]

maybe if BT DID start pricing those releases at their secondary market value, they could take the tremendous extra profits, build another warehouse, and begin loading it up with future stocks of those releases, which would one day stabilize the prices somewhere between the primary and secondary market prices of today.

but, who knows? the bourbon market in 2030 might have shelves full of $30 whiskey, or $300 whiskey.

[Quantum]

I will happily be a criminal to purchase a bottle of whisky for a friend and sell it for the priced I paid. Oooooh, I'm a bad person, throw me in jail!

[Phil T]

nothing wrong with bunkering, or grabbing yourself 3 cases........IF it's for your own consumption/parties/gifts/personal stash.

OR doing with it anything you want to do with it.

[Phil T]

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I do not think thais is what we are talking about here.

.

Doesn't matter, its still an illegal transaction. Money changed hands. Trading Is also an illegal transaction...just saying

[Quantum]

Doesn't matter, its still an illegal transaction. Money changed hands. Trading Is also an illegal transaction...just saying

Yes, thank you for restating basic facts. I should have been much more clear. I do not think the illegal activity of purchasing a bottle for a friend who later plans to repay you is the main issue we are discussing.

[docbible]

There will always be creative ways around the laws. If my "friend" gave me $350 for my birthday (a legal transaction) and i happened to give him a early vintage GTS for his birthday (a legal transaction if over 21) then all is good. Now substitute Valentines day, first day of spring, summer solstice, leprechaun day, dental health month, etc....... for birthday above and include a signed card, wouldn't you be covered for the transaction? I am not aware of any laws that would prohibit this as long as they are of age and is below the threshold for gift taxes. tim

[MauiSon]

Yes, thank you for restating basic facts. I should have been much more clear. I do not think the illegal activity of purchasing a bottle for a friend who later plans to repay you is the main issue we are discussing.

Edited February 10, 2014 by MauiSon

[squire]

There will always be creative ways around the laws.

[Phil T]

That's the problem. It is exactly what we're discussing, but many don't view it that way. I've bought bottles with no intention of consumption because someone else was willing to trade something I want (but couldn't buy) for something I could buy. Trading for selection versus trading for dollars is virtually indistinguishable. I find slipping on the top of the slope gets you just as muddy as slipping on the bottom.

[mbroo5880i]

The only real way to stop the "Black Market" is to convince the government that it is hurting their bottom line. Those in power hate for others to make illicit money if they aren't getting their cut. Not only are these transactions illegal because it involves selling alcohol without a license but also because appropriate taxes aren't declared. The government isn't getting their tax money. After all, isn't failure to properly declare income what brought down Al Capone? I buy enough bottles at $100 and sell them for $500 and I can generate a fair amount of income.

Everyone knows that people who sell bottles on Craigslist as collectibles are just skirting the rules. If the "collectibles" contain alcohol, whether intended to drink or not, it is still an illegal transaction. ABC folks should be confiscating these bottles. Just the advertising of them should be evidence of "intent to sell" without a license. Just investigating a few of the larger sellers on Craigslist might be enough to send a strong message. While there may not be much of a paper trail of evidence, just the inconvenience and expense of hiring an attorney might start scaring the smaller sellers off.

[BonVivant84]

Something else I’d like to throw in regarding this is the actual problem at retail. Was just discussing with another member here about how we are both aware of places in NYC and the surrounding area which are charging insane prices (PVW15 = $1500 LotB = $100 BTAC = $500+) but it’s just not about the mark up. They are also getting bottles outside of their distributors. The black market and retail market here really mirror each other, and you can’t help but feel like it’s because it’s only a few people controlling it, and its not just shady stores but very popular known ones. I'm not sure who is supposed to care about this (the state, distributors, etc..) but no one seems like they are going to do anything.

I guess the sum of it is, fine your business, do what you wish, charge YOUR customers what you want. But don’t pillage everything and not even give people a chance at paying a fair price from non-gouging retailers.

[wadewood]

It's illegal but nobody is enforcing the law.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

It's illegal but nobody is enforcing the law.

Crimes that lack victims are not only tough to prosecute but tough to identify.

[393foureyedfox]

It's illegal but nobody is enforcing the law.

yip, though I dont know why. I took a look out of curiosity the other day at who is selling what on craigslist, and there are lots. All it would take is for one ATF agent to impersonate a buyer a couple times a year, in various locations across each state. The story would get out and most people would decide that the risk isnt worth the profit

I too think there are certain laws that are outdated or senseless, but a society only works properly if everyone plays by the same rules.

[wadewood]

Enforcement needs to be a State level.

[Phil T]

yip, though I dont know why. I took a look out of curiosity the other day at who is selling what on craigslist, and there are lots. All it would take is for one ATF agent to impersonate a buyer a couple times a year, in various locations across each state. The story would get out and most people would decide that the risk isnt worth the profit

I too think there are certain laws that are outdated or senseless, but a society only works properly if everyone plays by the same rules.

Watch your local news or read your local newspaper. There are so many really bad things going on, that one person buying liquor from another person ( a basically victimless crime) has got to be very low on the food chain.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Phil T

[Quantum]

That's the problem. It is exactly what we're discussing, but many don't view it that way. I've bought bottles with no intention of consumption because someone else was willing to trade something I want (but couldn't buy) for something I could buy. Trading for selection versus trading for dollars is virtually indistinguishable. I find slipping on the top of the slope gets you just as muddy as slipping on the bottom.

As I stated before, I am not saying it is any less illegal, or any less muddy. I am saying that there are differences. The situation I responded to, and that I described, is making a purchase at the request of a friend, who will reimburse the cost of the purchase. Yes, that is illegal. There, we discussed the entire situation. There is no chance of replacing the contents, marking up the price, purchasing in bulk, using it to trade for something else you cannot find. It is never available on the black market and the value never changes, as the final transaction was already arranged before and purchase was made. There is really nothing else to add to that. What was being discussed earlier, and what you have described, is broader and actually lends itself to discussion.

[HighInTheMtns]

yip, though I dont know why. I took a look out of curiosity the other day at who is selling what on craigslist, and there are lots. All it would take is for one ATF agent to impersonate a buyer a couple times a year, in various locations across each state. The story would get out and most people would decide that the risk isnt worth the profit

I too think there are certain laws that are outdated or senseless, but a society only works properly if everyone plays by the same rules.

The cost of setting up and running a sting operation isn't worth the reward of popping a handful of folks for what is ultimately a very minor offense.

And if there is a demand for something that exceeds its legal availability, then there's a profit to be had by selling it on the black market. Just like "someone will always pay it"... Someone will always sell it. Small-time illegal alcohol transactions are essentially impossible to stop.

[mbroo5880i]

Why couldn't the state apply pressure on websites like Craigslist? Of course, whiskey is just one of the illicit areas pandered on the website.

[DBM]

As I stated before, I am not saying it is any less illegal, or any less muddy. I am saying that there are differences. The situation I responded to, and that I described, is making a purchase at the request of a friend, who will reimburse the cost of the purchase. Yes, that is illegal. There, we discussed the entire situation. There is no chance of replacing the contents, marking up the price, purchasing in bulk, using it to trade for something else you cannot find. It is never available on the black market and the value never changes, as the final transaction was already arranged before and purchase was made. There is really nothing else to add to that. What was being discussed earlier, and what you have described, is broader and actually lends itself to discussion.

Except that there is no difference, legally, between buying a bottle for a friend and selling/trading to a stranger. Read the first post from squire, he didn't delineate between these scenarios. He stated that any buying, selling and trading after a retail purchase is illegal and should be defined as a criminal act.

There's also the false assumption that many here make about who is profiting from the secondary market. I was once offered a bottle of PVW 15 for $450 and declined, but inquired about how the current owner came into possession. He said he purchased it from a retail store for $350. Of course I can't prove that particular scenario, but there's a good case to be made (from the "what did you pass up" thread with bottles on shelves for exorbitant prices) that others are legally buying at effectively secondary market prices and selling with a much higher burden/investment than someone who purchased at or near MSRP.

If I buy a bottle of PVW15 for $500 from a liquor store, I may want to recover that investment and would try to sell it for $500. Do you have a problem with that?

[HighInTheMtns]

Why couldn't the state apply pressure on websites like Craigslist? Of course, whiskey is just one of the illicit areas pandered on the website.

See: cessation of alcohol sales on eBay -> the rise of BX.

[dementedavenger]

yip, though I dont know why. I took a look out of curiosity the other day at who is selling what on craigslist, and there are lots. All it would take is for one ATF agent to impersonate a buyer a couple times a year, in various locations across each state. The story would get out and most people would decide that the risk isnt worth the profit.

The purpose of alcohol law enforcement is to ensure that taxes are collected and that alcohol does not get into the hands of minors. The bottles changing hands largely originate from retailers, where taxes are paid, and are going from adult-to-adult. This is why no one in law enforcement cares.

Few other products are regulated as tightly as alcohol, especially when it comes to what an individual can do with it once he legally owns it. You can resell virtually every other product out there legally but not alcohol. Guns, computers, cars, children's safety equipment, construction material, etc., etc., etc. But this isn't even about whether the laws pertaining to alcohol are outdated or misplaced; it's about what does anyone really care? Is this all about law & order? Is it about some bourbon code of conduct that's being broken? Is it about something else? I'd really like to understand.