Black is Black

[393foureyedfox]

Is this all about law & order? Is it about some bourbon code of conduct that's being broken? Is it about something else? I'd really like to understand.

throughout history, profiteers were looked at negatively

if the distillery prices it at $500 MSRP.....or if they price it at $80 and it ends up at $500 on the black market.....either way you pay $500 if you really want it, but your attitude about doing so is sharply different

[sailor22]

There was vibrant black market for alcohol during the federal prohibition of the 20's and early 30's. Historians tell us that it's existence was a major factor for the partial roll back of prohibition, where we find ourselves today.

The current prohibitions on the buying, selling and possession of whiskey are needless and outdated. Some are still federal and there are many overlapping state prohibitions. If a burgeoning black market emerges from the shadows spurred by internet driven commerce that completely overwhelms enforcement of these prohibitions while sidestepping the chokehold of control states and loosens the stranglehold of distributors in three tier states I for one won't shed a tear.

[tanstaafl2]

There was vibrant black market for alcohol during the federal prohibition of the 20's and early 30's. Historians tell us that it's existence was a major factor for the partial roll back of prohibition, where we find ourselves today.

The current prohibitions on the buying, selling and possession of whiskey are needless and outdated. Some are still federal and there are many overlapping state prohibitions. If a burgeoning black market emerges from the shadows spurred by internet driven commerce that completely overwhelms enforcement of these prohibitions while sidestepping the chokehold of control states and loosens the stranglehold of distributors in three tier states I for one won't shed a tear.

Hear, hear! I'll drink to that.

[AaronWF]

But this isn't even about whether the laws pertaining to alcohol are outdated or misplaced; it's about what does anyone really care? Is this all about law & order? Is it about some bourbon code of conduct that's being broken? Is it about something else? I'd really like to understand.

These are great questions. I don't understand the relevance of the law in terms of arguing over it; it's illegal, everybody knows that. Some people seem to equate illegal activities with immoral activities. Some people don't need to consider morality, and argue against the illegal activity simply because it's illegal. Perhaps they're worried about something Squire brought up in his OP:

what we have is a Black Market with it's accompanying degrees of criminal activity.

Although I would argue that a grey market invites the same criminal activity that a black market invites. Secondary markets for alcohol in other parts of the world are legal but certainly not official or sanctioned, and I understand that there's evidence of plenty of fakes out there in the world of wine.

Then there are those who are upset that fellow enthusiasts would even dream of exploiting their hobby for profit. It's exasperating, it can take the joy away for people, especially those a bit late to the game who see bottles coveted by true fans pass into the hands of those with superior means but less passion. Though the law has nothing to do with their motivation for arguing against the black market, they can use the law as a tool to argue against what their consider an immoral action - this breaking of the bourbon code.

As a hobby, bourbon buying, hoarding, drinking, trading, collecting can be a lot of fun. The more you invest in it emotionally, the more fun you have. And of course, the more emotionally attached you are to something, the harder it is to accept a change that is out of your control. We all know the landscape of bourbon has changed drastically over the last few years, and change can be a hard pill to swallow.

If a burgeoning black market emerges from the shadows spurred by internet driven commerce that completely overwhelms enforcement of these prohibitions while sidestepping the chokehold of control states and loosens the stranglehold of distributors in three tier states I for one won't shed a tear.

This states my own feelings quite perfectly.

[squire]

I believe I'll have another big orange.

[393foureyedfox]

Although I would argue that a grey market invites the same criminal activity that a black market invites. Secondary markets for alcohol in other parts of the world are legal but certainly not official or sanctioned, and I understand that there's evidence of plenty of fakes out there in the world of wine.

Then there are those who are upset that fellow enthusiasts would even dream of exploiting their hobby for profit. It's exasperating, it can take the joy away for people, especially those a bit late to the game who see bottles coveted by true fans pass into the hands of those with superior means but less passion. Though the law has nothing to do with their motivation for arguing against the black market, they can use the law as a tool to argue against what their consider an immoral action - this breaking of the bourbon code.

As a hobby, bourbon buying, hoarding, drinking, trading, collecting can be a lot of fun. The more you invest in it emotionally, the more fun you have. And of course, the more emotionally attached you are to something, the harder it is to accept a change that is out of your control. We all know the landscape of bourbon has changed drastically over the last few years, and change can be a hard pill to swallow.

[shoshani]

I believe I'll have another big orange.

Friend, you're a-gonna have to leave because it is that you don't have a ticket.

[BonVivant84]

It's been removed, what was it?

hahah that was quick, i didnt even report the link. A dude asking $1250 for GTS, and a good paragraph of bullshit about hows its best best best thing since sliced bread (not that its not delicious, but i dont think its the most rare bottle ever). Oh and also that he see's it being worth $5,000 a bottle in a few years.

[393foureyedfox]

also that he see's it being worth $5,000 a bottle in a few years.

only if we continue into some Weimer-esque inflation

[danz]

hahah that was quick, i didnt even report the link. A dude asking $1250 for GTS, and a good paragraph of bullshit about hows its best best best thing since sliced bread (not that its not delicious, but i dont think its the most rare bottle ever). Oh and also that he see's it being worth $5,000 a bottle in a few years.

I have no doubt that someone will ask that much for a bottle in a few years. I doubt anyone but a fool would pay​ that much.

[dSculptor]

As a hobby, bourbon buying, hoarding, drinking, trading, collecting can be a lot of fun.

I always frowned on those who hoarded, I never got into that level ... clearing out a shelf of something for whatever reason still equals the same result,nothing left for others...until now.All this black market and shortage thing going on has forced me into doing it,strictly out of necessity,that is if you can even get to that point of buying out a shelf anymore,but I still believe we must practice some ediquette.. My first and so far only hoard was just recently which involved some AAA 10 yr. old,I asked if they had a case of it and they did, so I took it,however I could of also cleared the shelf of 5 other ones,but chose to leave them behind,which led to another member being able to purchase some of it,(which he actually bought out the shelf).It seems common now for even those of us that have been in this hobby for awhile that when we come across something not readily available - we snap it up.Sometimes I also wonder if we aren't fueling this madness with all this info out here for anyone to come in and look at. Sad.. but true my friends. So in this day and age we can consider ourselves in a competitive hobby.The most I can hope to come out of this addiction is to be able to say..yeh,I tasted that one.So, as the most interesting man in the world would tell you.. Stay thirsty my friends! Which BTW, think I'll have a pour of GTS!

[BonVivant84]

I always frowned on those who hoarded, I never got into that level ... clearing out a shelf of something for whatever reason still equals the same result,nothing left for others...until now.All this black market and shortage thing going on has forced me into doing it,strictly out of necessity,that is if you can even get to that point of buying out a shelf anymore,but I still believe we must practice some ediquette.. My first and so far only hoard was just recently which involved some AAA 10 yr. old,I asked if they had a case of it and they did, so I took it,however I could of also cleared the shelf of 5 other ones,but chose to leave them behind,which led to another member being able to purchase some of it,(which he actually bought out the shelf).It seems common now for even those of us that have been in this hobby for awhile that when we come across something not readily available - we snap it up.Sometimes I also wonder if we aren't fueling this madness with all this info out here for anyone to come in and look at. Sad.. but true my friends. So in this day and age we can consider ourselves in a competitive hobby.The most I can hope to come out of this addiction is to be able to say..yeh,I tasted that one.So, as the most interesting man in the world would tell you.. Stay thirsty my friends! Which BTW, think I'll have a pour of GTS!

I totally agree, in a way our hands are forced. I used to be able just to stop by a shop next to my subway stop and pick up a Weller12 whenever i ran out. Now its been months, its starting to reemerge and of course at higher prices (i've seen $40) at places. Make no doubt when my guy gets it back i will grab a whole case just so 1) I'm not waiting on end forever 2) For any bottle that you go through on the regular it only makes financial sense to buy now before it starts getting priced to the hilt. Lucky this guy has good prices and doesn't gouge on the big boys which is so rare for NYC, he sold me one of my GTS for $119 which i found more than fair given the situation.

Ya def need to start off with a pour of Stagg once i get home.

[callmeox]

Please remember that links to auction sites are not permitted in the forums.

I've cleaned up the original post and some quotes. So if you seem to be missing a post, you know why.

Edited February 27, 2014 by callmeox

[smokinjoe]

I've always had a tough time wrappin' my head around the concept that the way to overcome the inefficiencies and problems of the multiple 3-Tier System is by fostering a 4th Tier...:crazy:

[ebo]

If ALL bourbon/whisk(e)y was available in ALL states, there wouldn't be a black market for it.

[393foureyedfox]

I always frowned on those who hoarded, I never got into that level ... clearing out a shelf of something for whatever reason still equals the same result,nothing left for others...until now.All this black market and shortage thing going on has forced me into doing it,strictly out of necessity,that is if you can even get to that point of buying out a shelf anymore,but I still believe we must practice some ediquette.. My first and so far only hoard was just recently which involved some AAA 10 yr. old,I asked if they had a case of it and they did, so I took it,however I could of also cleared the shelf of 5 other ones,but chose to leave them behind,which led to another member being able to purchase some of it,(which he actually bought out the shelf).It seems common now for even those of us that have been in this hobby for awhile that when we come across something not readily available - we snap it up.Sometimes I also wonder if we aren't fueling this madness with all this info out here for anyone to come in and look at. Sad.. but true my friends. So in this day and age we can consider ourselves in a competitive hobby.The most I can hope to come out of this addiction is to be able to say..yeh,I tasted that one.So, as the most interesting man in the world would tell you.. Stay thirsty my friends! Which BTW, think I'll have a pour of GTS!

nothing wrong with hoarding, if its for your own consumption. Youd have bought it anyway, one bottle at a time....so why not buy a case and just not buy anymore for a while? Its the hoarding-so-you-can-profit that I and others on here have issues with. You sound like the former, so go for it.

whether or not we are contributing to the problem is likely short term. sure, there are those of us buying things up by the case and contributing to others not being able to find it, BUT, sooner or later, our bunkers get full and we stop buying (or at least slow WAAAY down). On a long enough timeline, it likely makes no difference in overall sales and consumption.

If I really like it and have worries about it going away or being scarce, I'll buy in bulk. same goes with a great sale. Half-price clearance on something you already like? Im clearing the shelf!

[Frodo]

I always frowned on those who hoarded, I never got into that level ... clearing out a shelf of something for whatever reason still equals the same result,nothing left for others...until now.All this black market and shortage thing going on has forced me into doing it,strictly out of necessity,that is if you can even get to that point of buying out a shelf anymore,but I still believe we must practice some ediquette.. My first and so far only hoard was just recently which involved some AAA 10 yr. old,I asked if they had a case of it and they did, so I took it,however I could of also cleared the shelf of 5 other ones,but chose to leave them behind,which led to another member being able to purchase some of it,(which he actually bought out the shelf).It seems common now for even those of us that have been in this hobby for awhile that when we come across something not readily available - we snap it up.Sometimes I also wonder if we aren't fueling this madness with all this info out here for anyone to come in and look at. Sad.. but true my friends. So in this day and age we can consider ourselves in a competitive hobby.The most I can hope to come out of this addiction is to be able to say..yeh,I tasted that one.So, as the most interesting man in the world would tell you.. Stay thirsty my friends! Which BTW, think I'll have a pour of GTS!

I never used to buy more than 2 bottles of something until very recently. Now I have to jump on a case of something when it goes on sale in order to have a supply of something at a reasonable price.

[jwacky]

The only whiskey I "hoard" is Mellow Corn. I can't get it locally so whenever I can find a case shipping special I load up. Love the stuff so if I can get it for $10 a bottle shipped, I do it.