Craft whiskey distillers that never source

[DBM]

There's always an active conversation here about NDPs, the merits of their existence and honesty of branding. What about the other end of that spectrum - craft distillers who have never sourced from anyone.

Is anyone supporting these businesses, or is their young, overpriced, often inferior product just ignored? There are quite a few whiskey distillers in Washington State (and Oregon) that have only sold their own distillate from inception, but none of whom make particularly good whiskey right now when compared to established brands which are often at much lower prices. What do you make of a business you like but have a hard time supporting with your dollars?

[nd2005]

There's always an active conversation here about NDPs, the merits of their existence and honesty of branding. What about the other end of that spectrum - craft distillers who have never sourced from anyone.

Is anyone supporting these businesses, or is their young, overpriced, often inferior product just ignored? There are quite a few whiskey distillers in Washington State (and Oregon) that have only sold their own distillate from inception, but none of whom make particularly good whiskey right now when compared to established brands which are often at much lower prices. What do you make of a business you like but have a hard time supporting with your dollars?

I go with my taste buds. I can appreciate the small business aspect, appreciate the effort, appreciate what they are trying to do. But if it doesn't taste good...well, not to be insensitive but tough?

Same thing for beer, wine, restaurants, etc. I love supporting small businesses and local businesses...but only if the product is up to snuff.

[Harry in WashDC]

I'm a fan of the recent releases from Catoctin Creek Distillery, Purcellville, Va (www.catoctincreek.com) which started distilling in 2009 (& with which I have no relationship and have never visited although I do get their emails). Their Watershed Gin ($38) is pretty good, and their Mosby's Spirit ($38), a white whisky, has won a few awards but I haven't had it so can't give a personal opinion. Their Roundstone Rye ($45), to me, is a little grassy (or grainy, pick one) even at 80 proof, but it does mix well. They are planning to release a 92 proof RRye in the next few weeks. I'd link to the Washington Post article on it that was published today (Wed 30 Apr 2014) but can't get to the WP website www.washingtonpost.com for some reason.

On the more eclectic side of the micro-distillers close to me is Copper Fox Distillery (www.copperfox.biz), Sperryville, Virginia, which makes Wasmund's Single Malt (96 proof $37), Copper Fox Rye (90 proof $44), and several other products. Back in 2007, a friend of mine talked me into buying a bottle of the rye and the malt. Terrible. Well, almost. I have less than half of each left. BUT, last year, I decided to revisit and buy the current offerings. The current products are much better - age does wonders, apparently. Like the Catoctin offerings, they are not for everyday, particularly at their prices, but I do like them. They also offer a barrel-your-own kit, but I'm too old to try that out. Like Catoctin, I have no connection w/CF.

Yes, they are pricy compared to the price and quality available from more established DPs. But like the limited releases or the experimental offerings of the majors, sometimes they just "suit" what I feel like buying and drinking or sharing with friends. Catoctin has also made it into the WashDC mixologist circle. Several bars and restaurants that we go to regularly either have their products on the shelf or offer them as named ingredients on the cocktail menu.

[jmj_203]

I guess I'll have to try the catoctin cteek offerings in my area. I've been interested but nobody ever mentions them, and they are special order but online shopping cart category which means they get to my store for pickup in 3 days. May have to place an order next week, since I just ordered 4 old fitzs yesterday. Too many bourbons to try...

[squire]

Is anyone supporting these businesses, or is their young, overpriced, often inferior product just ignored? . . . . What do you make of a business you like but have a hard time supporting with your dollars?

I will not support a business that exploits me as a customer. Offering me a bottle of a flawed, underage experiment with a label using the "hand crafted, artisan, small batch, special water, grain, mashbill, yadda yadda" buzzwords of which ADI members are so fond at a markup of twice retail is an insult.

Make no mistake about it, these people are in it for the money and they ain't getting mine.

Edited May 1, 2014 by squire

[VAGentleman]

I've tried quite a few and most are horrible. There are only a couple that are OK to me. Finger Lakes, Balcones, Ballast Point come to mind. I don't mind the Catoctin Rye, not a fan of Copper Fox's but it has been a while.

[MyOldKyDram]

The biggest problem most of them have is that their sole reason for existence is money. There wasn't the need for them, like there was for the micros v big beer. They simply aren't making a better product to this point. I seriously doubt most can or ever will.

[dcbt]

I've tried to like several (especially legit Texas shops like Balcones and Garrison), but so far none really float my boat.

[squire]

They simply aren't making a better product to this point. I seriously doubt most can or ever will.

That's the crux of it. There was a genuine need for micro brewers and they are capable of making a better product at a competitive price. Micro distillers can't and buying distilling equipment doesn't make you anything but in debt.

Once you get past the marketing buzzwords most NDP/Micros are all hat and no cattle.

[callmeox]

I struggle with painting all micros with a broad brush. Some are making tasty non-whiskey products at reasonable prices but the temptation of jumping into the bourbon boom is too great to resist.

There is a market for crafty clear spirits like gin and lightly aged expressions like fruit brandies, applejack and rums but elevating their game into bourbonhood may end up breaking many of them.

They will benefit from folks who like to buy local or gravitate to the hot new thing but the question is if that is enough to sustain them.

[TunnelTiger]

We are all different but I've yet to taste a Balcone offering that I didn't like

[flahute]

Woodinville Whiskey is 5-6 miles down the road from my house so I desperately want them to succeed. This is one of the micro distillers that got their start with some mentoring from Dave Pickerell and they only sell their own product. Right now their bourbons and ryes are too young and mostly coming out of micro barrels at a cost of $39. It just doesn't work for me. Their first product aged in full size barrels (4 years) was released at Christmas for $150. That was an easy pass for something I knew nothing about. More full size barrel aged product is on the way, but I wonder at what price? (Hopefully they will phase out the micro barrel stuff because it's just weird tasting). I want to support these guys, but the product has to be good and I didn't want to be a guinea pig for $150 on their new stuff. I'm hoping in two years that we'll really know if they are good and here to stay.

[risenc]

Competitive quality at competitive prices is still a long way off for most of them, but I do think there are some very promising outfits. I agree with Harry in DC about Catoctin -- tasty stuff. I'm particularly partial to their cask-strength rye, which comes out now and then in limited batches. I like a lot of what Corsair puts out, ditto with Balcones. I've had some good ryes from Reservoir, out of Richmond. Ballast Point's Devil's Share is awesome. McCarthy's, from Clear Creek, is a winner, but in some ways it's in its own category, since they've been making it for decades, and so don't really stand alongside the army of new distilleries that are just now bringing out product.

Overall, though? There's going to be a huge shakeout as soon as the new wave of consumers gets tired of paying for high-priced, subpar booze. The question is whether enough of the truly talented craft distillers out there, like Chip Tate at Balcones, will survive.

[dcbt]

Woodinville Whiskey is 5-6 miles down the road from my house so I desperately want them to succeed.

I'm in the same boat with Herman Marshall - 3.8 miles from my house. But I tried it recently for the first time and unfortunately wholeheartedly disliked it. Now I'm pinning my hopes to the upcoming release from Firestone & Robertson (from my hometown). Their goal was 2014 but hopefully they won't rush it just to meet their internal timeline...

[miller542]

Woodinville Whiskey ... I desperately want them to succeed. ...That was an easy pass for something I knew nothing about.... I want to support these guys, but the product has to be good and I didn't want to be a guinea pig for $150 on their new stuff. I'm hoping in two years that we'll really know if they are good and here to stay.

Seems to me, if you desperately want something to succeed, you would go ahead and be the guinea pig for products you know nothing about, but I get it, $150 is a pretty high barrier to entry. You might have to take a flyer on a few more offerings otherwise they won't be around in two years to see how things turn out. Eventually, if the products never age to your taste, you do have to move on and let the market do what it will, because as you said, the product has to be good.

Edited May 2, 2014 by miller542

[flahute]

Seems to me, if you desperately want something to succeed, you would go ahead and be the guinea pig for products you know nothing about, but I get it, $150 is a pretty high barrier to entry. You might have to take a flyer on a few more offerings otherwise they won't be around in two years to see how things turn out. Eventually, if the products never age to your taste, you do have to move on and let the market do what it will, because as you said, the product has to be good.

Fortunately, they have a lot of fans here so there was a line out the door for the $150 special bottles and they sold out quickly. Seattle is the kind of place that places a high value on "craft", "local", and "artisanal" so lots of people are willing to fork over the money to show that they are supporting these attributes. For this reason, they appear to be doing well as they just completed a new stand alone distillery and aging facility so they have a lot of product aging and on the way. My fingers are crossed.

[marshbound]

On 4/30/2014 at 9:24 PM, Harry in WashDC said:

 

On the more eclectic side of the micro-distillers close to me is Copper Fox Distillery (www.copperfox.biz), Sperryville, Virginia, which makes Wasmund's Single Malt (96 proof $37), Copper Fox Rye (90 proof $44), and several other products. Back in 2007, a friend of mine talked me into buying a bottle of the rye and the malt. Terrible. Well, almost. I have less than half of each left. BUT, last year, I decided to revisit and buy the current offerings. The current products are much better - age does wonders, apparently. Like the Catoctin offerings, they are not for everyday, particularly at their prices, but I do like them.

Harry, from my visit to CF last week a couple of updates - one, they've raised prices and the Single Malt is now $45.  Also, they have an experimental bottling of only a single barrel of the single malt, aged 32 months, with the additional months in an apple brandy barrel. I liked this a lot but not for the faint of heart - the price was just < $100.  I'm not positive but it may only be available at the distillery itself (batch G-1).

Edited December 27, 2016 by marshbound
improve sentence structure to be more clear

[Flyfish]

The awkward thing at this time of year is that some non-bourbon drinkers think they are doing a great thing by giving you one of those micro-distillery products. It can be challenging to smile and be gracious while sipping "bourbon" that is on the far side of disappointing. Even if it has been aged a whole 2.5 years.

[Harry in WashDC]

20 minutes ago, Flyfish said:

The awkward thing at this time of year is that some non-bourbon drinkers think they are doing a great thing by giving you one of those micro-distillery products. It can be challenging to smile and be gracious while sipping "bourbon" that is on the far side of disappointing. Even if it has been aged a whole 2.5 years.

Oh, my.  So true.  It is the thought that counts, though, and I sometimes receive one I'd never buy and have never tasted, so there is an upside.

[BottledInBond]

On the portion of the discussion of sourcing versus only bottling their own juice, I think a lot of more recently launched distilleries are not going the NDP route, and are only bottling their own juice. A lot of them are trying to offset the time needed to age whiskey stocks by also producing clear spirits they don't need to age (vodka, gin, etc.). I think part of that trend is that the NDP game isn't really even available to them. A few years ago anyone could buy some barrels and start bottling. Today even if you want to pay huge premiums to buy barrels, you might not find any to buy, or it might only be aged  a couple months. 

 

On on the subject of "supporting" them, I don't go out of my way to do so. I've tried so much craft product that is essentially undrinkable to the point that I have to wonder if they even taste it themselves sometimes. Now I will buy it, but I insist on tasting it before I buy to prevent more brown paperweights for $50.

 

Do I want them to survive? I go to Kentucky pretty regularly, and going go the distilleries and walking around smelling the Angel's Share in the rickhouses and whatnot is one of my favorite things in the whiskey world. If some can survive elsewhere in the country, visiting those distilleries, seeing the production methods, meeting the people, those tangible things are cool local experiences that bring more value than just seeing a bottle on a shelf with a local address. But again, I don't really want to spend the time going to these places until they prove that they know how to make a worthwhile product.  

[lcpfratn]

Rock Town out of Little Rock, Arkansas has been doing a pretty good job with their bourbon and whiskey. Their pricing is not as crazy as some of the upstarts either. I've bought several bottles thus far...priced in the high $20 to high $30 range. I initially bought them based on Ralfy's review at Ralfy.com. I've only tried the Hickory Smoked Whiskey at this point. It was a bit young, but definitely has an interesting flavor profile. I think Rock Town is one of those craft distillers that is going to do very well over time.

Woody Creek out of Colorado is making some really nice stuff. They haven't released any bourbon yet, but they have a fantastic 100% rye whiskey priced in the $40 range. They also make a 100% potato vodka that is fantastic and some of the best gin that I've ever tasted. I highly recommend Woody Creek's offerings.



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[musekatcher]

I can think of two popular sourced bourbons that are widely awarded, so sourcing might not be the best litmus for even the craft bourbon industry.  But I agree there are too many upstarts, priced to appear equal to Blantons or ER.  Undisclosed, sourced, no awards, mysterious - I think new entries and serious crafters should be pricing their products less than the middle shelf, till they've proven worthy.  Ive been shocked at the numbers of new entries starting on the top shelf!  Obvious and disappointing - the medicine show is alive and well!  

 

 

[Flyfish]

28 minutes ago, musekatcher said:

I can think of two popular sourced bourbons that are widely awarded, so sourcing might not be the best litmus for even the craft bourbon industry.  But I agree there are too many upstarts, priced to appear equal to Blantons or ER.  Undisclosed, sourced, no awards, mysterious - I think new entries and serious crafters should be pricing their products less than the middle shelf, till they've proven worthy.  Ive been shocked at the numbers of new entries starting on the top shelf!  Obvious and disappointing - the medicine show is alive and well!  

 

 

I think they are "over priced" of necessity, not as an indicator of objective value--whatever that is. There are huge startup costs associated with distilling that must be made up somehow. That's why so many small distilleries sell unaged white product--vodka and gin--while waiting for their brown goods to be ready for market. Pricing product "less than middle shelf" because that is what it is really worth would mean selling every bottle at a loss. Besides, as an astute SBer reminds us, "Someone will buy it. Someone always does."

[marshbound]

12 minutes ago, Flyfish said:

I think they are "over priced" of necessity, not as an indicator of objective value--whatever that is. There are huge startup costs associated with distilling that must be made up somehow. That's why so many small distilleries sell unaged white product--vodka and gin--while waiting for their brown goods to be ready for market. Pricing product "less than middle shelf" because that is what it is really worth would mean selling every bottle at a loss. Besides, as an astute SBer reminds us, "Someone will buy it. Someone always does."

I would think it's a terribly difficult business to start up.  The only comparable industry I can think of is pharmaceuticals, with high up-front costs and years before they can go to market.   In pharma the little start ups get incremental funding as they show success at each stage of clinical development.  Investors keep investing as long as progress can be shown, but the real payoff isn't until the product can be sold and has ready buyers.

 

I'm not quite sure how the start up distillery business model works - could investors commission a master distiller to sample whiskey at 6 months, a year, 18 months, to determine if it's on track to be good (in order to validate their investment)?   Or do they have to start with a huge pile of their own money and operating on a shoestring until product can be ready before they run out of cash?  As noted some have been successful in marketing the clears which is a lifeline of survival until they can, hopefully, get their real products ready.  I've got a bottle of Catoctin Creek's Mosby's Spirit gathering dust in the back of my cabinet now, maybe someone here can suggest a productive way to consume it.   We all make mistakes.

 

With respect to Copper Fox, they have a side business that generates income - malting barley for beer.  Our tour guide claimed that they do contract malting for 150 micro-breweries (she may have included distilleries in the total) which keeps the malting floor and smoke room fully productive.  While I was there they were using mesquite for a beer, and I see from its beer menu that Pen Druid Brewing across the parking lot also uses them as well as acquires used barrels from them, all good for CF's business.

[Prof_Stack]

On 5/1/2014 at 5:29 PM, flahute said:

Woodinville Whiskey is 5-6 miles down the road from my house so I desperately want them to succeed. This is one of the micro distillers that got their start with some mentoring from Dave Pickerell and they only sell their own product. Right now their bourbons and ryes are too young and mostly coming out of micro barrels at a cost of $39. It just doesn't work for me. Their first product aged in full size barrels (4 years) was released at Christmas for $150. That was an easy pass for something I knew nothing about. More full size barrel aged product is on the way, but I wonder at what price? (Hopefully they will phase out the micro barrel stuff because it's just weird tasting). I want to support these guys, but the product has to be good and I didn't want to be a guinea pig for $150 on their new stuff. I'm hoping in two years that we'll really know if they are good and here to stay.

This is an old thread, and this post by Flahute (fellow Seattle-ite) makes sense from a 2014 viewpoint.  Woodinville Whiskey Co.'s 5-year bourbon and 5-year 100% rye are now for sale and are very good, and priced around $40 to $45.  Assuming they are going to release 6 and 7 year versions of these, they will be about where the NAS big-boys are currently operating (and F-off, Beam, while I'm at it...).  Other WA state distilleries will be in a similar position in a year or two, although Dry-Fly has been making great stuff all along, and it only gets better in time.

 

I've got mainly Kentucky made spirits in my bunker, but the percentage of local stuff will only increase.