An Open Letter to Sazerac

[Guy Debord]

Is there a thread on SB that notes all of the brand changes that have occurred through in the last 10 years? I just started playing with a list and I am sure it has flaws, but just curious to know the history of this practice.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 to 81 (back to 101 in 1.75 only for now)

Old Charter 8yo to #8

Very Old BartonBiB9yo to 6yo to #6

Heaven Hill BiB 8yo to 6yo gone

Benchmark 8yo to #8

Weller SR 7yo gone

Weller 107 7yo gone

Maker’s Mark from 90 to 84 back to 90

Evan Williams 1783 10yo to #10

Evan Williams 7yo to Kentucky's 1st Distiller

Basil Hayden 8yo gone

Old Grand Dad 86 to 80

Eagle Rare 101 to 90

[smknjoe]

Yes: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?21738-Lost-Age-Statements

[squire]

Mark Brown is to be commended for replying at length and shows a level of concern that should be an example to all who would speak on behalf of their company.

I don't buy the bit about the most gullible third tier customers somehow benefiting from the fake 6 on Barton however, if all those customers want is for their whisky to taste the same then a fake number isn't needed.

[smokinjoe]

I spoke to Mark Brown on the phone this afternoon, for almost an hour. I found him to be very courteous and upfront, and I'm still kind of blown away that the CEO of such a big company took time out of his day to talk to me. I feel like my concerns have been addressed, but I'll just try to summarize a bit and leave it to everyone to make up their own minds.

First off, regarding Barton "6" and Charter "8." Mark's opinion is that there are three general groups of bourbon drinkers: folks like "us" - the enthusiasts, the new crowd of bourbon drinkers who are ready to pay too much to get the bottles they want and tend to irritate people like "us," and the people who just want to go to the store and buy their same bottle and have it taste the same. He acknowledged my concerns about the numbers remaining, and said that it was debated internally, but that ultimately they opted to leave the number on the bottle in order to minimize apparent change for that third group of drinkers. According to Mark, the whiskey in VOB6 is currently 7 years old, and the whiskey in OC8 is 8 years old. He did not say that wouldn't change in the future, but he did say that they're committed to maintaining the flavor profile. He also pointed out that these were acquired brands; that age statements have not been a focus for Sazerac (BT, ETL, Blanton's...) and that they're doing their best to maintain these brands for their legacy drinkers.

Regarding Eagle Rare, Mark told me and specifically asked me to pass along, that Sazerac has no intention of removing the age statement from Eagle Rare, based on their planning through 2025 at least. It also remains a single barrel, for the most part. According to Mark, the change in labeling is due to logistics. Some Eagle Rare is now being bottled on the new bottling line while most Eagle Rare continues to be bottled in the Blanton's hall. The set up of the new bottling line does not allow them to bottle whiskey that meets their standards to be called single barrel, and so that verbiage is gone. The new bottling line also doesn't allow for the efficient application of a neck label (the pics of the new bottle confirm that there is no neck label - the stars are part of the capsule) and so the age statement was moved to the back.

In general, Mark told me that Sazerac's strategy is to try to keep good whiskey available to a wide range of customers, and that they don't intend to do things like price VW/BTAC out of the reach of ordinary consumers, even though they could. I can appreciate that.

I disagree completely with the VOB6/OC8 strategy, and I told Mark as much, but I can understand it a little better when I step back from my typical whiskey nerd perspective. I'm skeptical about ER, but what he told me makes sense based on the evidence available, and I'm willing to take it at face value and wait and see what happens. I really did get the impression that he was being frank and upfront with me, but most everyone knows how I feel about trusting guys who want to sell me whiskey. Right now, all I can say is that I really appreciate the responsiveness from Mark and Sazerac, I really enjoyed the conversation, and if I have a similar complaint in the future I'll reach out to Mark before doing anything else.

One other thing - Mark told me that the still at Barton is running 7 days a week, 3 shifts, 10 months a year, and the bottling line 7 days a week, 3 shifts, all year.

Jim, I'm not going to even read past the first sentence of this post, as I have to run off to dinner with Mrssmokinjoe. But, I am totally blown away that the man called you on the phone. Pretty awesome in itself. The rest of what you write may not be what I would like to hear (hopefully it is), but I'll head off to Seed and order a BT just for the cool gesture.

[HighInTheMtns]

Jim, I'm not going to even read past the first sentence of this post, as I have to run off to dinner with Mrssmokinjoe. But, I am totally blown away that the man called you on the phone. Pretty awesome in itself. The rest of what you write may not be what I would like to hear (hopefully it is), but I'll head off to Seed and order a BT just for the cool gesture.

Seriously. I'm feeling pretty flattered.

[squire]

You should, bet you didn't see that one coming.

[HighInTheMtns]

You should, bet you didn't see that one coming.

I figured I'd get a response. I didn't figure it would be from Mark directly, and I definitely didn't figure he'd take so much time out of his day for it.

[GaryT]

That is pretty awesome. The neck label thing stands out to me as one of those "Oh . . . yeah, there is an operational reason for the change, why didn't I think of that?" things. I'm always trying to remind myself at work that when I see a change, I should give folks the benefit of the doubt and assume positive intent unless I learn otherwise. Granted - I suck at that Thus the constant need to remind myself. Super cool that he took the time to call. I think I'm going to pour me some ER10 when my glass empties - just 'cause (it has nothing to do with the fact that it is a solid pour; honestly - there is no selfish motivation here)

[mbroo5880i]

First, Jim, thank you for starting this thread. Obviously, it is an issue you are passionate about and you took a very risky step in providing a detailed perspective. One never knows how others will respond. I believe you found significant support amongst your friends here because we feel much like you do. Yes, not everyone agrees with the concern or approach, but friends can agree to disagree.

Second, thank you for representing our interests with involved parties and providing a complete summary of communications. As you point out, we can take the information provided and interpret it however we wish. I choose to give Mr. Brown the benefit of the doubt. Do I believe everything will work out the way he suggests? Probably not, because things change. However, I am ok with some of the things he said. For example, I am still curious as to why ER10 bottling was moved from the single barrel bottling line to the new bottling line and why that requires co-mingling of barrels. However, I am ok with ER becoming small batch, if the age and profile remain the same. I am certain that retailers will still purchase single barrels.

Third, thank you for sharing his response! It is very helpful in answering questions many of us have.

[silverfish]

Regarding Eagle Rare, Mark told me and specifically asked me to pass along, that Sazerac has no intention of removing the age statement from Eagle Rare, based on their planning through 2025 at least. It also remains a single barrel, for the most part.

[HighInTheMtns]

"...for the most part." - What the heck does that mean?!

Is it or isn't it?...

[squire]

Sorta Single or Single Optional, the concept is a work in progress.

[dmarkle]

Nobody asked me for my opinion. Here it is (I love the Internet):

I think ER is definitely an enthusiast's bourbon. This enthusiast buys it often, and is one of the best bourbons to bring to a party or to a rental house. It's tasty and consistent. I sip it and enjoy it, and share it with people who like to water it down or mix it, and it's not preciously priced. The age statement IS a big selling point though, and why they would want to de-emphasize it by putting it on the back of the label like that mystifies me, and I definitely can understand thinking it's fishy. It'd be interesting to see if the age statement is still on the neck of the handle, though, since it may or may not be bottled on the same line. I remember seeing the 7 yo age statement on OWA handles a year or so after they switched bottles for the 750's.

As far as the OC 6 and OC 8 go, I think Mark's explanation makes sense for those labels. If that's your go-to and they want to make the change, greatly switching up the name or label could be really jarring to that consumer. I work with one or two people that are extremely brand loyal, and I imagine for those people, if they dropped the numbers, they'd get confused.

Big props to Mark for communicating so directly, even though he can't pronounce Louisville right. We'll have to share a Bulleit sometime.

[WAINWRIGHT]

I'm impressed and frankly jealous of how this all went down,.You are commended for bringing this forth and Mark Brown for not only personally responding but also so personally and thoroughly.Well done sir......well done!

[jmj_203]

Yeah great mark called you directly, surprisingly commendable gesture considering we were all a bit hotheaded and upset. I also found a local store today that had a new shipment come in with the neck label age statement and single barrel, so hopefully we will still see it most of the time with only sporadic mixed barrels. I'm still suspicious but I'll let it play out however. For the time being, I'll still be a regular supporter of BT, only the future will tell if they keep the quality whiskey theyve become known for to my tastes. Definitely will pour at least one drink of ER tonight, but it will still be my old neck bottle, lol. Didnt crack the newby bottle yet.

[HighInTheMtns]

Yeah great mark called you directly, surprisingly commendable gesture considering we were all a bit hotheaded and upset. I also found a local store today that had a new shipment come in with the neck label age statement and single barrel, so hopefully we will still see it most of the time with only sporadic mixed barrels. I'm still suspicious but I'll let it play out however. For the time being, I'll still be a regular supporter of BT, only the future will tell if they keep the quality whiskey theyve become known for to my tastes. Definitely will pour at least one drink of ER tonight, but it will still be my old neck bottle, lol. Didnt crack the newby bottle yet.

The single barrel label is going away.

[CL]

HITM/Jim, thanks for taking the time to bring this topic up, for talking to Mark, and for bringing the answers back to us.

Kudos to Mark Brown for reaching out to Jim and talking with him. That shows a CEO who is interested in keeping the enthusiasts informed and on his side. I thought his answers about keeping the 6 and 8 were reasonable. I'm still bit skeptical about whether the loyal consumers would be confused, but I will take Mark's word for it. After all, it's his industry and business. I am just a networking engineer.

I was also glad to hear the explanation behind the ER10 labeling (though, still a bit confused about the single barrel aspect).

Finally, Mark gets my vote for this comment: "the new crowd of bourbon drinkers who are ready to pay too much to get the bottles they want and tend to irritate people like 'us,'". The man knows his enthusiasts. :-)

[wadewood]

Dear Mark Brown,

I bought my new bottle of Very Old Barton just like I do every 2 weeks on payday. I was finishing off the pour in last bottle and had bottles side by side and I noticed a difference. I'm not sure what to make of it. This new bottle has the number 6 and old bottle says 6 years old. I'm sure it just a marketing thing that I should not be concerned about. The thing is when me and my boys shoot the bottles with our shotguns, we like to aim at the years old part on the label. What's is going on?

Signed,

Loyal Bourbon drinker from 3rd group

[jmj_203]

Maybe I misunderstood your reply, but it sounded like the bottle I have doesn't have a neck label applied. It does, its applied over the glass seperate. And I guess I didn't understand the response because it seemed like ER would be single barrel most of the time, but what was being bottled at the new line wasn't because of some excuse about newer technology lines being unable to perform the way old technology could, because we all know a new line is outdated tech wise. blah, I heard what I needed to. Sorry they had the business "talk" with you. I misunderstood as things were all okey dokey. nevermind, time to buy up all the rutledge great tasting 4 roses left before they jump the shark also.

[HighInTheMtns]

Maybe I misunderstood your reply, but it sounded like the bottle I have doesn't have a neck label applied. It does, its applied over the glass seperate. And I guess I didn't understand the response because it seemed like ER would be single barrel most of the time, but what was being bottled at the new line wasn't because of some excuse about newer technology lines being unable to perform the way old technology could, because we all know a new line is outdated tech wise. blah, I heard what I needed to. Sorry they had the business "talk" with you. I misunderstood as things were all okey dokey. nevermind, time to buy up all the rutledge great tasting 4 roses left before they jump the shark also.

According to Mark, it will typically be single barrel; it will not be labeled as single barrel in any case, because it doesn't meet BT's internal standards for single barrel if it is bottled on the new line.

This isn't because new technology can't do what old technology can, it's because it's a bigger, faster line and some whiskey from one barrel may remain in the system when the next one is dumped.

Listen... I'm kind of an asshole. I don't know if you got that from the original post, but it's true. I was totally prepared to be bullshitted. I have seen the Blanton's bottling hall, where ER has historically been bottled, and for a brand of that size, it would be a big job there. I believe what he said about the single barrel thing. Age statement, well... Mark specifically asked me to let everyone know that it will not be going away, even for whiskey that won't be distilled until next year. Time will tell, but that's a strong statement.

Edited May 24, 2014 by HighInTheMtns

[Restaurant man]

Dear Mark Brown,

I bought my new bottle of Very Old Barton just like I do every 2 weeks on payday. I was finishing off the pour in last bottle and had bottles side by side and I noticed a difference. I'm not sure what to make of it. This new bottle has the number 6 and old bottle says 6 years old. I'm sure it just a marketing thing that I should not be concerned about. The thing is when me and my boys shoot the bottles with our shotguns, we like to aim at the years old part on the label. What's is going on?

Signed,

Loyal Bourbon drinker from 3rd group

Classic!!!! Wait a week though.

[Restaurant man]

Jim, I'm not going to even read past the first sentence of this post, as I have to run off to dinner with Mrssmokinjoe. But, I am totally blown away that the man called you on the phone. Pretty awesome in itself. The rest of what you write may not be what I would like to hear (hopefully it is), but I'll head off to Seed and order a BT just for the cool gesture.

Seed? Those are my people. Next time you gotta tell em KB sent ya!!! Great restaurant.

[Merrymash Monk]

"This isn't because new technology can't do what old technology can, it's because it's a bigger, faster line and some whiskey from one barrel may remain in the system when the next one is dumped. "

First, let me thank your for starting this thread. I love people who are passionate about their whiskey, and this is about the most passionate thread Ive seen on this site. Secondly, from what Mark told you, its a shame that in this "new technology" age we can't even say whether or not a whiskey comes from a single barrel. Not that single barrel whiskey is necessarily any better, but I'm just saying...it seems kind of funny.

[HighInTheMtns]

"This isn't because new technology can't do what old technology can, it's because it's a bigger, faster line and some whiskey from one barrel may remain in the system when the next one is dumped. "

First, let me thank your for starting this thread. I love people who are passionate about their whiskey, and this is about the most passionate thread Ive seen on this site. Secondly, from what Mark told you, its a shame that in this "new technology" age we can't even say whether or not a whiskey comes from a single barrel. Not that single barrel whiskey is necessarily any better, but I'm just saying...it seems kind of funny.

[393foureyedfox]

This isn't because new technology can't do what old technology can, it's because it's a bigger, faster line and some whiskey from one barrel may remain in the system when the next one is dumped.