Transition from sourced distillate?

[rndenks]

I read a lot of posts on here that mention brands using sourced whiskey. I assume some are small, and buying saves them the overhead of distilling it themselves. I can also understand the difficulty of a new company/micro starting up and having to wait years for their whiskey to age. It is a long time to wait to start seeing cash flow.

My question is, are there any recent brands/companies/micro's that have successfully made the transition from using a sourced distillate in their product, to producing a whiskey that is 100% their own?

[squire]

There are some doing that now and will be more in the future, it's just too early yet for the practice to be widespread. Only time will tell which ones have the staying power but to address the point if a new company wants to offer an 8-10 year old whisky they have to buy it from someone else.

[jmj_203]

I have high hopes, and fingers crossed for both High West and Smooth Ambler. I'll be downright butt-hurt if Smooth Ambler can't make bourbon as fine as the juice they are picking because thats damn delicious bourbon.

[dcam1075]

I guess one way to look at it is the most talked about and arguably the highest rated Bourbon today is ultimately a sourced distillate. So maybe the question could also be is it necessary for one to make the transition at all? As for your actual question I think it will be interesting to keep an eye on Smooth Ambler and how things progress with their brand as they make the transition in the next couple of years once their barrels come of age. Would be interesting if it ends up they do a better job of selecting/sourcing barrels than they do filling them!

[rndenks]

So this seems to be a relatively new process that roughly coincides with the "boom"?

[BootsOnTheGround]

I think if the brands continue to be bought up or consolidate, you'll see the transition happen more quickly. Look what Bud did for Goose Island; they were already in a pretty big warehouse and now they have 20,000 barrels of BCS and the largest warehouse in N America AFAIK.

And I mention breweries because the trend going forward will definitely be in the brew-stillery business.

Michter's and High West are building and will be coming online.

Willett seems pretty motivated to get their rye out the door quickly.

I think Breckenridge will have some ok stuff soon.

More and more micro's starting by the day. There will be a distillery on every street corner in the next 5 years. Huge cash cow that's no where near run it's course as far as I can gather.

[squire]

Let me go on record as saying I don't think the transition is necessary. More than a century ago there were Bourbon Factors (merchants, George Dickel was one) who didn't distill whisky. They owned warehouses which they filled with sourced whisky which they then aged, blended and sold under their own labels. When Pappy Van Winkle went to work for the Weller company in 1894 they were selling sourced whisky, Old Forester was originally a brand made up of sourced, mingled whisky. It's a sound business practice that should work today.

Of course in our information age they couldn't pretend it was their own stuff (unless you believe that buying it makes it "yours") and sell it in a fancy bottle with a fake history and jacked up prices.

[cowdery]

Arguably, Woodford Reserve successfully transitioned from one source to another when it went from being 100 percent Jefferson County (JC) source to a mixture of Woodford and JC. I've had straight Woodford County Woodford, from the barrel, and it's just as good as the JC stuff, but it's not the same.

Many major brands have transitioned from one distillery to another, e.g., W. L. Weller, Old Fitzgerald, Old Crow, Old Taylor, Old Charter, and for that matter, Van Winkle. Since Wild Turkey built a brand new distillery, it will be making that transition in a couple of years as whiskey from the new plant matures.

As for micros transitioning from sourced to made, a few inexperienced ones still talk about that, but no smart distiller would attempt it. It's difficult if not impossible, especially going from large volume continuous still production to small volume pot still production, and there's no point. They will treat their house-made products as different products, i.e., different brands. Smooth Ambler signaled their intention to do that by creating the Old Scout brand. I can't imagine they will ever brand a product they made as Old Scout. That brand is for their sourced products. There is also no reason to think Smooth Ambler or High West will get out of the NDP business. It's a different business and if they are successful at it, why stop?

Can a small distillery make a bourbon that is as good as one made by a large distillery? Absolutely. Will it taste exactly the same? No way, but why would you want it to?

[Harry in WashDC]

I don't remember which SB thread had a post from (I think John Little at) SA, but the post made it pretty clear they had no intention of trying to match the profile of their SA OS line with their own distillate. After trying their SA line (and thereafter seeking out several stray bottles of 7yr and 10yr SAOS to bunker), I, too, hope they stay in the NDP business. For one thing, my basement is getting full.:cool:

[mbroo5880i]

Yeah, I was thinking that John or Yeti mentioned their initial aged product will be a wheat bourbon. Who knows, maybe I am remembering incorrectly.

[Phil T]

Yeah, I was thinking that John or Yeti mentioned their initial aged product will be a wheat bourbon. Who knows, maybe I am remembering incorrectly.

[jmj_203]

I came too late to see those. That makes me happy at least, Ill enjoy my Old Scout since I also have a basement full of the 7 yr, and will definitely buy any product to sample released under SA. As long as it hits my minimum years, ie no yearling. Get me some SA at about 6 to 7 years esp a wheater and im buying. And drinking.

[GaryT]

There is also no reason to think Smooth Ambler or High West will get out of the NDP business. It's a different business and if they are successful at it, why stop?

Exactly! If their current business model is generating enough free-cash flow to sustain the rest of their operation while the whiskey matures, why would they shut off the spigot? You might see more focus from a marketing perspective on their own distilled whiskey when it is of age, and if the larger distilleries start raising the prices such that the NDP business isn't as profitable - it could be scaled back. But I think you're looking at a loooooong time down the road before their own distilled whiskey is generating enough business to keep them going. Plus I think the NDP space gives them so much more opportunity for creativity (if you're only distilling 2 or 3 different mashbills, but can buy a half-dozen others and have had success with different blends/mingles, why not!)

[SmoothAmbler]

I'll chime in here.

Our first house produced product will be a wheated bourbon, followed by a wheat whiskey, then a few other limited release items like a rye/wheat blend. As Chuck mentioned, and industry veterans (like Larry Ebersold) have said to us in the past, it's foolish to try to make a replica product. I don't think it can be done give all of the variables.

There were/are three things we liked about Old Scout. 1. It was different from what we saw on the market, 2. It is unlike what we make, and 3. It's damn delicious. It's good business for us and has allowed us the time to properly age our own stock. We have no intention of stopping our Old Scout business. There's one problem with that...it's hard to find aged whiskey now. We're looking, and able to buy, but there's not much out there that we see.

Currently, we are working on a project that blends some of our Old Scout juice with some of our 2+ YO house juice. We've been working on the project for about 4 months with the help from some enthusiasts and from industry folks. It will be a "Blend of Straight Bourbons" since it contains straight bourbon from two different states. We're very proud of it and I think it shows the next evolution in our business. We hope to submit the label next week. I'm sure someone here will find it.

[Tony Santana]

Thanks for the info, always good to hear from those in the know. I - and many others on this site - am a fan of the SA products and look forward to more.

By the way - Very Old Scout - is that a line that's in our rearview mirror now?

[mbroo5880i]

I'll chime in here.

Our first house produced product will be a wheated bourbon, followed by a wheat whiskey, then a few other limited release items like a rye/wheat blend. As Chuck mentioned, and industry veterans (like Larry Ebersold) have said to us in the past, it's foolish to try to make a replica product. I don't think it can be done give all of the variables.

There were/are three things we liked about Old Scout. 1. It was different from what we saw on the market, 2. It is unlike what we make, and 3. It's damn delicious. It's good business for us and has allowed us the time to properly age our own stock. We have no intention of stopping our Old Scout business. There's one problem with that...it's hard to find aged whiskey now. We're looking, and able to buy, but there's not much out there that we see.

Currently, we are working on a project that blends some of our Old Scout juice with some of our 2+ YO house juice. We've been working on the project for about 4 months with the help from some enthusiasts and from industry folks. It will be a "Blend of Straight Bourbons" since it contains straight bourbon from two different states. We're very proud of it and I think it shows the next evolution in our business. We hope to submit the label next week. I'm sure someone here will find it.

I find this an exciting evolution. I love your sourced product and look forward to your house produced product. However, I really like the idea of a product blending both. As mentioned in another thread, some blends of straight whiskeys produce amazing results! Given your sourced whiskey selection acumen and the great things I am hearing about your distilled product, I look forward to this next generation of product. Do you envision it will be a blend of different mashbills (e.g., your wheated bourbon with a rye bourbon)? It is ok, if you cannot say right now. Indiana would love to be a "test" market! :grin:

[TunnelTiger]

Really looking forward to anything new y'all do. Will start pestering my dealer as soon as it is available!!

[SmoothAmbler]

Thanks for the kind words.

Very Old Scout, at the moment, seems to be in the past. We do have some juice that we would like to earmark for a VOS release in the future. But, right now, it's hard to wait when the juice is good at this moment.

The new product will be a blend of low rye MGPI/LDI product (21% rye) with our wheated bourbon (15% wheat).

[jonhalter]

Thanks for the kind words.

Very Old Scout, at the moment, seems to be in the past. We do have some juice that we would like to earmark for a VOS release in the future. But, right now, it's hard to wait when the juice is good at this moment.

The new product will be a blend of low rye MGPI/LDI product (21% rye) with our wheated bourbon (15% wheat).

Thanks for being so honest and open. People like you really help make this community special.

[rndenks]

SA has been on my wishlist for a while. All this talk might move it up a bit!

I sometimes read/interpret posts mentioning NDP bottles as being put down a bit. After all these posts maybe it is not as much about the sourced product, but rather the people rushing the slightly aged product out?

[dcbt]

SA has been on my wishlist for a while. All this talk might move it up a bit!

I sometimes read/interpret posts mentioning NDP bottles as being put down a bit. After all these posts maybe it is not as much about the sourced product, but rather the people rushing the slightly aged product out?

I think if all NDPs were transparent like SA was above, there weren't be that negative perception of NDPs.

[TunnelTiger]

SA has two things going for it that most NDP's don't. They are honest with what they sell and it tastes great!

[DBM]

Most of the examples given in this thread involve moving distilleries but owning the distilling process on both sides. I do believe that some craft distillers using NDP whiskey today plan on transitioning to their own aged distillate using the same/similar product label.

Isn't this the case with Breckenridge? Their label is surprisingly void of details and simply says "bourbon whiskey" and includes the statement "Aged for a minimum of 2 years in charred new American oak barrels", yet it's fairly obvious by the profile that it's a longer aged NDP product that could be labeled "straight" and not need an age statement (=> 4 years). If one day, or over time, they blend/replace their own distillate into a bottle with the exact same label on the front (the fine print on the back may need to change, but who looks at that?), they aren't breaking any laws. It's very deceiving if they actually did that, especially with all the marketing they to do promote their awards, but it's entirely plausible.

[bad_scientist]

Isn't this the case with Breckenridge? Their label is surprisingly void of details and simply says "bourbon whiskey" and includes the statement "Aged for a minimum of 2 years in charred new American oak barrels", yet it's fairly obvious by the profile that it's a longer aged NDP product that could be labeled "straight" and not need an age statement (=> 4 years). If one day, or over time, they blend/replace their own distillate into a bottle with the exact same label on the front (the fine print on the back may need to change, but who looks at that?), they aren't breaking any laws. It's very deceiving if they actually did that, especially with all the marketing they to do promote their awards, but it's entirely plausible.

[Harry in WashDC]

Speaking of SA and its sourced Old Scout line vs. their own distillate, the Smooth Ambler July email hit my inbox this AM. Here's one of their announcements - [begin quote]

Barrels

The word barrel by itself may not seem very sexy, but for us...barrels are just as important as the gravy on our biscuits! At the end of May, the oldest barrel of SAS Whiskey turned 4 yrs old and the oldest barrel of Old Scout turned 11!

Possibly even more exciting, we barreled our 1000th barrel on June 6th!! This of course would not have happened w/out the support & enthusiasm of you, our loyal fans. [end quote]

Looks like I may live long enough to taste their own "straight" aged at least 4 years as well as another iteration of their Old Scout. :cool: