Willett's as a brand does not interest me at all

[squire]

Steve nothing is so outstanding as to cause to buy from those I don't trust. Willett burned me more than 20 years ago and their recent attempt to sell "pot still" whisky leads me to believe they're still marking cards.

[bin31z]

If your buying the bottle just because of the label and the age then that statement makes sense. If you have knowledge of what that particular barrel tastes like and consider it outstanding or unique then the price seems much more reasonable.

Parker's Heritage has never retailed that high, BTAC has never retailed that high, even with Diageo, you get a 20+ year old product for that kind of money. I get that the fancy bottle, crest and multi-colored wax is attractive but I just don't see the value there. Very rarely do stores have open bottles for tasting. Its hard enough to find a bottle of theirs over 4 years old at all, its harder still to find someone else with an open bottle for you to taste, then to find another bottle for sale to buy. Seems like alot of work...

[sob0728]

Apart from the 4-6 yr ryes, it's not the same provenance. All the Old Scouts come from MGP. The Willetts come from Heaven Hill, Brown-Forman, Beam, and possibly others.

Ok, so if it's Heaven Hill I'd much rather have ECBP for 1/3 the price. If it's Beam I'll take Booker's for 1/2 the price. If it's B-F, I'll take OFBB at a slightly lower proof for 1/2 the price. If it's BT, I'll take GTS at 3/5 the price. It's overpriced no matter what it is.

[bin31z]

Ok, so if it's Heaven Hill I'd much rather have ECBP for 1/3 the price. If it's Beam I'll take Booker's for 1/2 the price. If it's B-F, I'll take OFBB at a slightly lower proof for 1/2 the price. If it's BT, I'll take GTS at 3/5 the price. It's overpriced no matter what it is.

This what I was thinking too.

[HP12]

If your buying the bottle just because of the label and the age then that statement makes sense. If you have knowledge of what that particular barrel tastes like and consider it outstanding or unique then the price seems much more reasonable.

Amen Steve. I know exactly what you are saying!

[mbroo5880i]

Not to support or put down Willett but there is a slight misconception in the pricing discussion. Not all Willett bottles are $150. The few that I have purchased ranged between $30 to $50 typically with one $85. However, in all cases, except with the rye, I had an opportunity to try before I bought. This pricing is consistent with what I have seen with Old Scout.

I also prefer Old Scout over Willett because of business practices (i.e., the pot still misconception) and it is more readily available. I do not care for any of Willett's non-WFE products.

[flahute]

Ok, so if it's Heaven Hill I'd much rather have ECBP for 1/3 the price. If it's Beam I'll take Booker's for 1/2 the price. If it's B-F, I'll take OFBB at a slightly lower proof for 1/2 the price. If it's BT, I'll take GTS at 3/5 the price. It's overpriced no matter what it is.

Well, I can't blame you, but not everyone agrees that it's overpriced. Willett wasn't even selling them for this much a year ago but they saw what was happening on the secondary market and adjusted their prices. Despite that, they still out almost instantly. It will be interesting to see how much longer the majors hold off on increasing prices. If you read Driscoll's blog, he spoke recently about hearing from industry insiders that they notice what is happening and that things may change soon.

[sob0728]

I don't fault Willett at all, they are selling the bottles. The whiskey is good. I bought a 10 year bottle (barrel 828) last year for $70 and it was great. This year the 11 year was $120. That's just too much for me when I see what I think are better deals in the market.

[Auracom]

Everyone knocking the quality-to-price ratio of WFE is 100% accurate. ECBP, 4R PS, etc. are equal quality [or better in some instances] for considerably less cost. But stop beating up Willett for that. The price is what it is, and it's not out of touch with current demand. Even after dropping over $10 per year of age on many of these bottlings... it seems that most people are happy with the product.

Perhaps this thread is a reality check on how lucky we are to have the ability to buy stuff with better QPR than WFE and that we really shouldn't take it for granted.

[squire]

Good thought, time to go shopping for some non Willett product.

[PaulO]

A couple things about Willett: it's gotten really hyped up, and there is limited amount of the older barrels at this time. It seems too expensive to many of us. From an economic point of view; something is only too expensive if it doesn't move. There's not enough VW or BTAC to go around for now. Willett has become sort of a consolation prize. When you get right down to it, all the major whiskey distillers involved have a quality product coming from the still. In most instances any barrel aged a few more years and bottled at barrel proof will seem pretty nice, sometimes exceptional. This was the WFE niche. Now more of the majors are releasing their own barrel proof bourbons: OGD 114, WT Rare Breed, KC Single Barrel, Bookers, Stagg Jr., Four Roses (10 different recipes), and of course ECBP. I will buy any of these plus Old Scout.

[garbanzobean]

The fact that the bourbon market has gotten to the point where Scotch whisky has a far better QPR in the $100 and over category is pretty humorous to me. While I understand that America's current fascination with nouveau Southern culture is a driving force behind all this, I really do hope there is a point in the near future where we can all have a laugh about it. This is BOURBON for god's sakes. The everyman's drink. Willett's prices are up there with Ardbeg, Bowmore, and Macallan, and while I don't have a huge issue paying $100 for a really good 10 year barrel proof whiskey, at least when it comes to scotch that inflated price guarantees I can walk into almost any good bottle shop and find what I'm looking for. I also find it funny that Independent bottlers in the Scottish whisky industry tend to be paragons of transparency when it comes to who made the stuff (and where/when it was made, what it was aged in, etc), whereas Independent bottlers (or NDPs) in the bourbon world have taken "lack of transparency" to unparalleled and dizzying heights.

I just hope the market reaches equilibrium before we all get priced out of the bourbon game. Or enough "craft" (or crafty, depending on your perspective) distilleries start making good product at sufficient capacity to introduce more competition into the system. Hah. That seems unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Edited September 10, 2014 by garbanzobean

[BigRich]

The fact that the bourbon market has gotten to the point where Scotch whisky has a far better QPR in the $100 and over category is pretty humorous to me. While I understand that America's current fascination with nouveau Southern culture is a driving force behind all this, I really do hope there is a point in the near future where we can all have a laugh about it. This is BOURBON for god's sakes. The everyman's drink. Willett's prices are up there with Ardbeg, Bowmore, and Macallan, and while I don't have a huge issue paying $100 for a really good 10 year barrel proof whiskey, at least when it comes to scotch that inflated price guarantees I can walk into almost any good bottle shop and find what I'm looking for. I also find it funny that Independent bottlers in the Scottish whisky industry tend to be paragons of transparency when it comes to who made the stuff (and where/when it was made, what it was aged in, etc), whereas Independent bottlers (or NDPs) in the bourbon world have taken "lack of transparency" to unparalleled and dizzying heights.

I just hope the market reaches equilibrium before we all get priced out of the bourbon game. Or enough "craft" (or crafty, depending on your perspective) distilleries start making good product at sufficient capacity to introduce more competition into the system. Hah. That seems unlikely to happen anytime soon.

The scotch independent bottles also typically charge less for their bottling a than the distillery.

[garbanzobean]

The scotch independent bottles also typically charge less for their bottling a than the distillery.

Excellent point. Like the bottle of Scott's Selection 26 year old Ardmore I bought yesterday for less than $150 (distillery bottling @ 30 yrs is around $300-$400) that has been described as "Port Ellen" like.

One thing I will say is that there is an equivalent to Willett's in the scotch world: The Scotch Malt Whisky Society (of America). Their bottlings are always cask strength and are generally expensive (right around $10 per year; more or less depending on distillery). Their label is very cool looking. Their releases are generally considered to be on par or even above distillery bottlings (can't say that about a lot of IBs). They do code their bottles to obfuscate distiller, but it is very easy to find a list of series codes on the internetz to tell you who made what.

[bin31z]

I mean, you can find 30 year old Cognac for 130 bucks for goodness sakes!!

[bin31z]

SMWS bottlings are a joke with their stupid names to their stupid numbering system to their stupid club that you have to join to buy whiskey from them. I see the resemblance with WFE.

Excellent point. Like the bottle of Scott's Selection 26 year old Ardmore I bought yesterday for less than $150 (distillery bottling @ 30 yrs is around $300-$400) that has been described as "Port Ellen" like.

One thing I will say is that there is an equivalent to Willett's in the scotch world: The Scotch Malt Whisky Society (of America). Their bottlings are always cask strength and are generally expensive (right around $10 per year; more or less depending on distillery). Their label is very cool looking. Their releases are generally considered to be on par or even above distillery bottlings (can't say that about a lot of IBs). They do code their bottles to obfuscate distiller, but it is very easy to find a list of series codes on the internetz to tell you who made what.

[BigRich]

SMWS bottlings are a joke with their stupid names to their stupid numbering system to their stupid club that you have to join to buy whiskey from them. I see the resemblance with WFE.

How do you really feel?

[squire]

I take a certain amount of solace from the fact we're just a couple months away from the holiday sales.

[bin31z]

How do you really feel?

Have you seen their names?? Resting by a lake with a dinosaur. Sucking on a salt lick during summer.

[Auracom]

The bottle names are funny as hell. I take nothing about SMWS serious.

[garbanzobean]

The bottle names are funny as hell. I take nothing about SMWS serious.

To be honest, I don't even look at the names, just the distillery number. But now that you mention it, the names and absolutely ridiculous tasting notes are funny. And let's be honest, they are just as useful as any other tasting notes I've ever seen on a bottle of whisk(e)y. Which is to say, they aren't. So at least they don't take it too seriously. I've personally only tried one bottling, at Jack Rose. It was the most recent 17 yr Caol Ila, and was absolutely fantastic. It also retailed for like $150-$180. While I'm really glad I got to try it, the attraction of Caol Ila to me is that you can still find good quality IBs of it for reasonable prices.

At any rate, I do see some parallels between SMWS and Willett and thought it would be worth pointing out. It's worth noting that SMWS and SMWSA get some flack for the QPR of their bottlings, but not nearly as much as Willett. Given that the SMWS requires an expensive membership and goes with the ridiculous names and tasting notes, there is possibly even more to be annoyed about. So why not? I guess it's possible that it's because they're one of the only organizations that can ship to control states, but I'm betting it's because there's an easy way to find out where the booze came from. Those silly little numbers create an awful lot of good will.

Edit: Also, SMWS(A) members are a lot less rabid than Willett . . . whatever they are. Kind of like refusing to buy an album because you hate the fans, not the band.

Edited September 10, 2014 by garbanzobean

[DEelfinn]

I take single barrel whiskey reviews with a generous grain or 2 of salt. I remember reading multiple reviews of how great 2012 FR1BLE was, but the bottle I opened didn't live up to them. Could be a case of going in with too high expectations, or palate differences, or variation in barrels, even when selected to be similar to each other.

For WFE NDP Bourbon, as others said, each selection is unique mystery wiskey, but also as others have said, I've rarely tasted one I didn't enjoy, and some are very memorable. I prefer to taste a barrel before I buy, but I've also taken my share of gambles. My tolerance for price has definitely increased as the bourbon boom continued to expand.

I've enjoyed all the WFE ryes I've had, including the 2 year non-NDP.

Regarding the inability to find a barrel you know you liked, the market's probably a bigger factor than anything else right now. A couple years ago I was able to go back to TPS twice to buy a particular barrel I liked. Now, if I love it and it's an 8-11 year expression, I'd buy extras ASAP.

[The Black Tot]

Willett is like a great restaurant that used to be fantastic value but now you have to line up around the door to get in and they've doubled the prices and the owners are finally making some better money. I'll go on a weekday, if they have a special menu with a good deal, but I don't expect the bargains of early days.

Life is long, options are many, and people are fickle. Someday something will change and people will go out to eat less, or find a new restaurant they're crazy about. When the tables are no longer filled every day, the pricing will come back down, and I'll start going back to the restaurant regularly, provided the success hasn't spoiled them and the quality remains intact.

Willett's fan base is just as irrationally frenzied as Pappy's and the BTAC's. What goes up must come down, and the flippers are going to get caught when the bubble bursts. Not as badly as I'd like to see them get caught, but I digress.

It Willett's case, I'm feeling fine about it - the frenzied success is paying for the installation and kickoff of a real distillery (that many have been calling for for years) and rackhouse expansions. It's pre-funding the great bourbons and ryes (we hope, and expect) of the future. So if the flippers and high rollers want to clear the shelves of W's aged sourced stock, and in so doing foot the bill for this next generation, they certainly may. Maybe I'll be getting this new stuff cheaper (in a real, inflation adjusted sense) when it's 20yrs old. I have the feeling I will.

Until then, it ain't gonna be no daily drinker, but I've got $100 for the odd bottle of something tasty, unfiltered, at barrel proof, bought from a store I feel good about shopping at.

[Ravensfire]

Willett's fan base is just as irrationally frenzied as Pappy's and the BTAC's.

Cannot disagree with this, even as I'm one of their fans. Alas, the WFE has breached my limit with the most recent store barrel that hit western IL. I got a couple of bottles, but that was it. And the guy in front of me bought 6 cases (near $3,000 total) and has entered semi-legendary status. I'm trying to ride the coattails (literally - I was the next guy in line, damnit!) but it hasn't gotten me anything.

[sailor22]

Pretty much agree with everything TBT said.

The one thing that hasn't been pointed out is that there are a LOT of retailers and groups picking barrels of Willett, or have picked them and are awaiting delivery. This from only a few smallish batches of barrels.

In the early days only a very few were sampling and selecting. I know that those few sampled many many barrels before they found a honey barrel they thought was special enough to buy. In fact looking at barrel numbers on WFE's I see a lot of barrels that were sampled and didn't make the cut the first or second time around. But they did for another group or retailer. So many that are being released recently are just the best of the rest.

The longer a barrel program is in place from a smallish number of barrels the less likely you are to find a very special barrel.