If you had a 5 liter charred barrel . . .

[GaryT]

So at KBF I talked myself into a 5 liter barrel from Independent Stave (had been thinking of buying one on-line, and the avoidance of shipping plus having one from folks who know how to make a good barrel - stars aligned!) I've been refilling with water for it to swell per the instructions, and am preparing to fill it in the next day or two.

There are a couple of different aspects I'm considering, but wanted to see what everyone else thinks on the topic.

AGE: I want to throw in young bourbon (sub 4 yrs), and avoid bourbon that is older (definitely avoiding 10 yr+). Unfortunately, most of the young bourbon I have is only 90 proof, which brings me to . . .

PROOF: I wanted to try to use some higher proof bourbon to offset the lower proof. Based on what I have on hand, I probably can't hit 115 proof, but my goal is to try for that.

MASHBILL: The only wheated mashbill I have that is higher proof is WLW, which isn't going into this experiment. While I have a handle of Larceny, in trying to keep the proof up - I'm leaning towards using traditional rye to high-rye bourbons (like OGD 114).

DISTILLERY: I don't know that this will be a consideration, or if it is - perhaps a tie breaker.

COST: I'd be lying if I said this wasn't a consideration (I'm not using BTAC, ECBP, etc), but I'm also not limiting it to value bourbon (as I don't think I could hit the proof I'd like with that).

Lastly - I'm looking to use what I have on-hand, rather than going out and purchasing for this. I expect this first fill to be a learning experience, and honestly - am not getting my hopes up. Long term I'd like to have a "living mingle" in the barrel after perhaps the 2nd or 3rd fill, so that it is evolving, although that may still be too long in the barrel unless I consumed/added pretty regularly.

How would you approach it?

[sutton]

What about some HH Gold Label BiB with the OGD 114? Don't know if you want to mix distilleries (or even how that would taste, but it would get your proof up there and meet your age constraint ...)

OR ... put all OGD 114 in there to get the wood notes up, and then blend it back with regular OGD114?

[Grain Belt]

4 750 ml ECBP + 1L of EWBIB

[Grain Belt]

4 750 ml Knob Creek Single barrel 120 proof(9years old) + 2 1L Kirkland (Costco) small batch 103 proof (7 years old) Same Beam juice, both have some age but not too much. The price shouldn't be out of touch with reality, and the proof should be close to your target.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Grain Belt

[BFerguson]

Never done it myself, but reading the experiences of others, I'd likely toss in something very young, white dog, and something inexpensive, young HH, to start.

I would do this to take some of the initial barrel intensity down a notch, then start to add something more along the lines of your final thoughts.

While it may taint most people's results, I would maybe add in the first fill some overproof rum. I think that could play well with a BIB in the mix. After all , it's a experiment.

B

[garbanzobean]

You could always throw in some under-matured rye . . . Like maybe WFE 2 yr.

Where will you be storing this barrel?

[PaulO]

I have seen HH and BT white dog in stores.

[Richnimrod]

g'bean's question about the location of the barrel is a very important one to consider. If it gets hot enough on your porch at/near the ceiling (build a tall rick?), I'd do that for the portion of the 'warm' season that remains...or; attic?. I don't know if it'll get warm enough this season to really do any aging; but maybe. Outdoors in the winter will draw back whatever small amount has entered the wood past the sugar line. If storing at a constant temperature (indoors), I doubt you'll get much action from a barrel, even as small as this.

Also, The entry proof IMO doesn't need to be much more than low-100's proof to get the 'barrel benefit'. I think your target of 115 is a bit higher than necessary; but who knows?

As to choices of brands to blend.....

I'd start with OGD114, add KC120, then put in a higher proof wheater like OWA. That would be all the high-proof I'd use. You could use whatever younger stuff you wish to bring the proof down to about 107 (again, my opinion, only). Maybe something like HH BIB 6-yr. Old Charter 101, and any 90-proofer's you wish. The addition of a bit of Brandy might enhance it; but it wouldn't be 'Bourbon' any longer. I look forward to tasting your experiment(s).

Good Luck, and Have Fun!

[393foureyedfox]

i think if i had one of those right now, Id go clear the shelves of what little gold HHBIB is out there, and put that in there.....but Id also toss in the 375ml bottle of 125 proof BT white dog that I can think of no other use for. That's likely get me about 105 proof and young mix to start. Then, I think Id keep it stored in the open rafters of my carport, where it would see the heat of the metal roof in the summer, and the cold of the open air in winter. how could you go wrong? Youd have whatever that barrel cost plus $75 in contents.

[Richnimrod]

One other consideration that I believe bears upon this discussion is the difference in climate (winter, especially) between Nothern Georgia and any place in Kentucky. KY will get down ith single digits occasionally, sometimes for days without getting above freezing at all; really forcing the 'extraction' of fluids from the wood., The chance of that happenning in GA will be remote, and short-lived. That means (IMO) that the lower the proof at entry, the more likely you'll benefit from whatever cool (rather than very cold) weather comes your way, given the higher temperature required to cause vaporization of water, and lower temperature required to freeze alcohol.

Just my thoughts.

[BFerguson]

Do they give a char level for the barrel, or just say charred? If heavy, I'd stick with the early edition of something light and cheap to take the I ital brunt of flavor.

but of course, it's only speculation as to what may really happen.

B

[GaryT]

Thanks for the suggestions and feedback!

Some items in my "definitely going in" list right now (for this first fill) include:

OGD 114

Copper City Bourbon (2 yr MGP from Az, 90 proof)

Evan Williams BIB (375 mL)

VOB BIB 6 yr (375 mL)

HH BIB 6yr (750 mL)

I like the KC idea - would definitely get me closer to the proof, but I don't have any on-hand.

The rum is interesting, but I think I'll see how it works with just bourbon for now (if this is enough fun for the trouble, I may try getting a smaller 2 or 3 liter barrel next year to play with rum or other things!)

The WFE 2yr is a good idea - I may add some of that to the mix. Great question on where I'll be storing . . . I have a screened in porch which would provide some temp variation for a bit, but likely will wind up in doors for the winter (probably in the basement). With a barrel this size, I'm thinking that the first fill will probably be mature in a matter of months (and I'll probably check it every other week). During the summer, I'm definitely thinking our screened in porch is the destination (and I'll have to think about the tall rick idea Dad; I like it other than it being very inviting to the four evil cats that dwell here, who will immediately take it as something for them!)

They did not give a char level (in fact, they weren't entirely sure if they were charred or "toasted" in the booth, we took the spigot and bung out of one to look inside, and it is what I would guess is a medium char).

Other items I'm thinking of putting in (the rest of these are portions of a bottle - not entire bottles) include:

Fighting Cock 6 yr 103 proof

Old Ezra 7yr 101 proof

Old Forrester Signature 100 proof

Stagg Jr 134.4 proof (to help get the proof up)

Bookers 127.3 (again, to help drive the proof up)

Wild Turkey 101 proof

Depending upon how much of what I put in, I figure I'll wind up with a proof in the range of 107 to 112.

[squire]

I would fill it with Wray & Nephew 126 proof rum and see what the barrel will do.

[DBM]

Personally, I wouldn't try blending multiple whiskeys in a barrel with the hope that it will get better. That's a lot of juice, and barrel, to experiment with.

My first inclination is to go for an underaged rye - WFE 2 year is a perfect example - but why do in a 5 liter barrel what WFE is doing with 53 gallon barrels? You'll be able to buy their (presumably better) aged product at the same time that yours is aged. How about a cocktail mix? Manhattan? Boulevardier? Vieux Carre? If you stick with just bourbon, I'd probably go for a four grain blend of something you think would get better with age. OGD114 and OWA sounds good on paper, I've never tried to blend it though.

Also, a word of warning - I had a 2 liter barrel completely filled with 120 proof white dog (after a 2 day soak in hot water). I tried it every couple months for the first 6-7 months and it was still bleh, so I left it untouched for another 6-7 months. To my surprise, after about a year, the barrel was bone dry. 100% evaporation! It was stored indoors on a glass table. No residue from a leak - it literally evaporated out of the barrel. Come to find out, keeping barrels indoors is a terrible idea - the low humidity and consistent temperature sucks all the juice out of the barrel.

[GaryT]

Personally, I wouldn't try blending multiple whiskeys in a barrel with the hope that it will get better. That's a lot of juice, and barrel, to experiment with.

My first inclination is to go for an underaged rye - WFE 2 year is a perfect example - but why do in a 5 liter barrel what WFE is doing with 53 gallon barrels? You'll be able to buy their (presumably better) aged product at the same time that yours is aged. How about a cocktail mix? Manhattan? Boulevardier? Vieux Carre? If you stick with just bourbon, I'd probably go for a four grain blend of something you think would get better with age. OGD114 and OWA sounds good on paper, I've never tried to blend it though.

Also, a word of warning - I had a 2 liter barrel completely filled with 120 proof white dog (after a 2 day soak in hot water). I tried it every couple months for the first 6-7 months and it was still bleh, so I left it untouched for another 6-7 months. To my surprise, after about a year, the barrel was bone dry. 100% evaporation! It was stored indoors on a glass table. No residue from a leak - it literally evaporated out of the barrel. Come to find out, keeping barrels indoors is a terrible idea - the low humidity and consistent temperature sucks all the juice out of the barrel.

Wow - thanks for the warning!! As dumb as this sounds, I have fairly low expectations on this first fill - which makes me think I should buy a bunch of bottles of value bourbon for the first fill. But, I'm thinking about it in part as an opportunity to take some bourbon from the cabinet that I don't reach for that often anyways and possibly give it a bit of an edge (and if I ruin it - it won't be a big waste; and won't have cost me any more money than what I'd already spent on that bourbon that wasn't moving very quickly). In fact, that almost becomes a plus in that the cabinet will have more space, so the wife can't complain about me filling it again

I was thinking about the outdoors thing, and curious - are insects/pests a concern? I could put it on my screened in porch, but I know we do get ants or other things that find their way onto the porch (and with the aroma from the barrel - not sure if I should try putting it in some other container on the porch, with some ventilation, etc?

[amg]

i like the idea of putting a general vatting of miscellaneous bottles in it, especially for the first fill. After the first batch has run through it, it might be good for mellowing out young/harsh stuff without going too bitter with the char.

I also like the idea of filling it with a cheap bonded like Old Fitz and see what that does.

[petrel800]

Whatever you do, make sure you put the state of distillation on the label. I'd hate to see people gathered outside of your house with pitchforks and torches. Or even worse have one of those GBS lawyer types class action lawsuit you.

[jvd99]

I was thinking about the outdoors thing, and curious - are insects/pests a concern? I could put it on my screened in porch, but I know we do get ants or other things that find their way onto the porch (and with the aroma from the barrel - not sure if I should try putting it in some other container on the porch, with some ventilation, etc?

[kcgumbohead]

Some version of white dog would make a nice addition to the mix. I don't have any of the BT or I would volunteer it for the experiment. Sounds fun and interesting.

[The Black Tot]

I haven't tried it yet, but people say Fighting Cock is a decent bourbon that has the kind of rough edge on it that some additional aging might mellow. FC is cheap and readily available for such an experiment.

[MauiSon]

FC may be a bit rough, but it's strong-flavored already. I like the idea of Old Fitz BIB or OWA - lighter flavored bourbons that could use some umphh.

Dickel #1 might be interesting.

Edited September 30, 2014 by MauiSon

[kickert]

Most people have no idea how fast these small barrels impart their influence. 30 days in a 5 liter is going have some serious wood influence. For perspective, 90 days in a 5 gallon is often pushing the limit for new make.

I would recommend your first dump is nothing but cheap spirits. I know guys who start with super cheap vodka (or everclear) just make sure when they put good spirits in it doesn't overwhelm the profile. If you want your first run to be whiskey, I would go with a handle of bottom shelf stuff and agitate on a regular basis.

The most successful barrel projects I have tasted have used worn out barrels with a wide range of bourbons mixed together. Essentially the barrel just helps everything mingle together and pick up some sweet notes while allowing for slight oxidation.

[Paddy]

Maybe a mingle of Mellow Corn and Dickel rye to bring it in at roughly 50/50?

[Josh]

Most people have no idea how fast these small barrels impart their influence. 30 days in a 5 liter is going have some serious wood influence. For perspective, 90 days in a 5 gallon is often pushing the limit for new make.

I would recommend your first dump is nothing but cheap spirits. I know guys who start with super cheap vodka (or everclear) just make sure when they put good spirits in it doesn't overwhelm the profile. If you want your first run to be whiskey, I would go with a handle of bottom shelf stuff and agitate on a regular basis.

The most successful barrel projects I have tasted have used worn out barrels with a wide range of bourbons mixed together. Essentially the barrel just helps everything mingle together and pick up some sweet notes while allowing for slight oxidation.

If I had a 5 liter barrel, I would fill it with the ashes of my enemies, then fill it with Rebel Yell. After 30 days I would force their friends and family members to drink manhattans made from the ash-infused bourbon. I would laugh menacingly while this was going on.

But seriously, what Ben said. I've aged new make in a 5 liter barrel and it was OK (by micro-distiller standards) but very sharp. I had much more success when reusing the barrel for barrel-aged cocktails, a manhattan and a boulevardier specifically.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Josh

[GaryT]

Thanks everyone. I probably should have spent the extra dough on some cheaper stuff for the first fill. I'm going to check it weekly (and pull an ounce sample for later comparison/study), and after a couple weeks - even more often. My goal is that when it has either peaked, or if it seems like it is only going downhill - I'll dump it (and depending how it is, use parts of it in future mingles, etc). At some later date, I want to compare the various weekly samples to see if I can get a feel for what week would have been the best (although not quite sure why - as every barrel is different, the weather is different, etc). Probably just an excuse to geek out on bourbon

I didn't sample it, but the nose was nice. I made a 1 oz sample bottle from the spigot (kiddingly marked as "Aged 3 minutes"). The mingle includes the following (not in equal proportions):

Bookers

Copper City Bourbon (young MGP)

Evan Williams BIB

Heaven Hill BIB 6 yr

James E Pepper 1776 Rye (pretty young)

Old Fitzgerald's 1849 (some wheat to the party; I was out of OWA)

Old Grand Dad 114

Stagg Jr

Very Old Barton BIB 6 yr

Willett Family Estate Rye - 2 yr

My estimate based on the volume/proof is that the entry proof was 107ish. The 5 liters also didn't take a full 5 liters (although maybe it would have - I was trying to avoid an overflow but it looked like another ounce might do it when I reached about 4,650 mL).

Another question I had: Once it is "dumped", would you expect it to freeze in terms of flavor profile? I know it doesn't age in glass, etc - but wondering if this is a case of waiting until it is right where I might want it is already too late. I'm thinking this isn't the case, but thought I'd ask.