michters 20 yr question

[matthewdc]

Can anyone tell me if there is much difference between batches 13H215, 13H216, and 13H217? Thanks!

[bin31z]

People actually buy this?

[LCWoody]

And "we" drink it too...

[nd2005]

People actually buy this?

My thought exactly

[squire]

Buy it, drink it, enjoy it and I expect those who like the profile would like the same whisky just as much bottled under a different label. As it stands though the current Michters aged versions are undoubtedly being marketed for affluent customers rather than the connoisseurs.

[risenc]

For what it's worth, and say all you will about Michter's, but this is one of my favorite bourbons of all time. It's like drinking a birthday cake (which may or may not be your thing). As for differences among batches, I've never tasted them side by side; I had a glass last week at Maysville, in Manhattan, but that was almost two years after my last glass. Broadly speaking, though, I didn't pick up huge differences between that glass and my memory of glasses past.

[bin31z]

For what it's worth, and say all you will about Michter's, but this is one of my favorite bourbons of all time. It's like drinking a birthday cake (which may or may not be your thing). As for differences among batches, I've never tasted them side by side; I had a glass last week at Maysville, in Manhattan, but that was almost two years after my last glass. Broadly speaking, though, I didn't pick up huge differences between that glass and my memory of glasses past.

[squire]

Help me out Clay, you've done the research. I have a theory some of these double digit aged Bourbons have been heavily filtered (not chill filtering, there are other processes) to reduce the astringency and woody flavors. The technology is well understood (Barcardi does it on a massive scale) but I should think the process would be too costly to adjust a limited amount of old Bourbon unless it could be sold for a premium.

[LCWoody]

The 20y is an expensive bottle of bourbon, but it's all relevant to how you look at it. I think it is absolutely insane to buy $150 to $1000 ticket to a football game that last for 4 hr. And buy a $10-$15 glass of beer inside the stadium, but there are people that do it every week, and they enjoy it. I feel the same way about boats and cars. Some people put tens of thousands of dollars into them, if it makes them happy I'm happy for them. That's their expensive bottle of bourbon. Life is short enjoy it.

And Matt, I wouldn't worry about the difference in taste too much they are going to be so close you probably couldn't tell the difference. Very good bourbon.

Edited November 10, 2014 by LCWoody

[risenc]

Help me out Clay, you've done the research. I have a theory some of these double digit aged Bourbons have been heavily filtered (not chill filtering, there are other processes) to reduce the astringency and woody flavors. The technology is well understood (Barcardi does it on a massive scale) but I should think the process would be too costly to adjust a limited amount of old Bourbon unless it could be sold for a premium.

[HD 335]

I don't remember reading much on the M20 releases here but the main thing that is odd is the bottle count on their 20 year. Some have over 200 bottles from the barrel which is impossible. It wasn't until recently that I noticed Michters doesn't designate it as straight bourbon on their bottles. I spoke with another American whiskey enthusiast and we both agreed that some filtration might have occurred and more than likely, these 20 year "single barrels" is actually just a batch of various 20 year, or more, barrels dumped together and then re-barreled. This would definitely negate Michters putting straight bourbon on the label. Is there a time period where batch dumps into a single barrel can be considered a single barrel product again?

[squire]

Since there's no legal definition of single barrel there's no restriction on producers dumping anywhere from one barrel to hundreds of barrels and calling it all the product of a single barrel which is technically true but deceptive none the less.

Lacking clear and convincing evidence to the contrary I believe some (most?) of these over aged Bourbons have been heavily filtered to make them palatable. Nothing wrong with that (it does make them drinkable) but it rather dispels the 'older is better' mystique.

[HD 335]

Thank you for the info squire. I suspect most buyers for the Michters 20 won't be as interested in the details as members of this forum.

[tylermke]

The early legendary KBD ryes that were tanked and re-barreled were still labeled as straight once they came out. I don't think the rebarreling has any impact on whether they are able to be labeled "straight". In fact, I don't think any of Michter's bourbon products are labeled as "straight" for whatever reason.

What's also interesting to note is that the 2012 "barrels" indicate they were bottled in Bardstown, whereas the 2013 and 2014 "barrels" were bottled in Louisville. Bottling switched from Strong Spirits to, presumably, Michter's. I don't think that means the source of the distillate changed, but perhaps they were able to secure additional sourced whiskey to meet the demand for additional "barrels" and decided to bottle on-site vs contract out.

[garbanzobean]

My concern about bourbons that aren't labeled "straight" is that the TTB regulations as to whether or not they can use additives seem to be fuzzy enough that I'm paranoid about less than scrupulous distillers/rectifiers chancing the addition of flavoring.

[squire]

Good point Eric, there's lots of wiggle room for those who dwell in shadows and if they will lie to us about one thing . . .

[tylermke]

The additives discussion has already been covered ad nauseum by sku, Cowdery, and others. I think a lot of enthusiasts (myself included at one time) are blowing the additives discussion out of proportion. That's not to say I don't think of it, but it's not at the forefront of my mind when evaluating a bourbon.

If you are curious to read more, see below.

Chuck's comment on TTB clarification: "Bourbon whisky can't have coloring, flavoring, or blending materials because 27 CFR 5.23(a)(2) allows the use of such materials up to 2 ½ percent only if “customarily employed therein in accordance with established trade usage.” TTB’s interpretation of this is that Bourbon whisky does not customarily include such usage (straight or otherwise)."

source: http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2014/09/flavoring-is-legal-in-american-whiskey.html (read Chuck's comment on 9/22 discussing clarification on TTB)

From sku: "The TTB's Beverage Alcohol Manual states that bourbon of any kind (not just straight) cannot contain coloring or flavoring. The Manual is not an official regulation, but it is a guideline as to how the TTB interprets the regulation, so for now, the TTB is apparently interpreting it in a way that prohibits coloring and flavoring in any bourbon..."

source: http://recenteats.blogspot.com/2011/08/whiskey-wednesday-bourbon-law-for.html

[garbanzobean]

I'm just saying, it's odd to not see a company like Michter's (clearly interested in establishing ties to the bourbon heritage, based on the name they are using) use the "straight" designation on their products. I wonder why is all. Maybe I'll email them and ask.

Super late Edit: I emailed Michter's directly to ask them why their bourbons don't bear the "straight" designation. I'll let you guys know how they respond.

Edited November 15, 2014 by garbanzobean
Added info

[HD 335]

The early legendary KBD ryes that were tanked and re-barreled were still labeled as straight once they came out. I don't think the rebarreling has any impact on whether they are able to be labeled "straight". In fact, I don't think any of Michter's bourbon products are labeled as "straight" for whatever reason.

Yes, I also heard that the older Willett releases such as Doug's picks and Lenell's also were over 200 bottles from a single barrel. They too must have been vatted from multiple barrels and re-barreled into a single. I must assumed that the designation for straight required that the whiskey be aged in it's original barrel.

[tylermke]

Super late Edit: I emailed Michter's directly to ask them why their bourbons don't bear the "straight" designation. I'll let you guys know how they respond.

I hope you have better luck than I did!

[garbanzobean]

I hope you have better luck than I did!

No response so far. I hope you guys that like Michter's don't take my paranoia as criticism of your purchasing choices. I'm certainly glad to have more consumer choice rather than less. If we all liked the same thing, then I would be whining constantly about never being able to find Four Roses. Nobody likes a whiner.

[tylermke]

No response so far. I hope you guys that like Michter's don't take my paranoia as criticism of your purchasing choices. I'm certainly glad to have more consumer choice rather than less. If we all liked the same thing, then I would be whining constantly about never being able to find Four Roses. Nobody likes a whiner.

I personally am not taking anything you're saying as criticism. I enjoy a healthy discussion as much as the next guy. Cheers!

[garbanzobean]

So I finally got a response from the Michter's team. They referred me to their website and said that all of their bourbons and ryes are in fact "Kentucky Straight." I could swear the "straight" wasn't on the website a week or two ago, but the wayback machine and google cache have failed me, so I'll take them at their word. I guess I could email back and ask why only the ryes seem to have that on the label, but I sort of stopped caring about the issue. Maybe it's on the back somewhere. I'll check my bottle of 10 year old when I get home.

[Old Dusty]

I think Chuck C and others have shed enough light on Michter's, their Master Distiller who doesn't distill and other marketing shenanigans that the rule should simply be caveat emptor. If what's in the bottle floats your boat, buy and drink it. But don't expect transparency or a "straight" answer. :grin:

[The Black Tot]

They definitely cost 400 straight dollars.