Letting the bottle open up

[T Comp]

Believers in this often repeated topic around here (not me) may be interested in a prior thread where Luther did a little bit of experimenting. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?18628-Whiskey-and-Air

I accept that minute chemical changes occur. They even occcur in an unopened bottle. "The glass bottle itself is not completly inert". http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2013/02/bottle-maturation-obe.html

I remain skeptical these changes, even in an opened bottle, within a reasonable time period, (let's say up to a year) are perceptible. Never noticed them myself. Why is whiskey starting to remind me of high end audio. :grin:

Of course as with most myths, debunking is not an easy task and by posting on it further, I'm probably just strengthening it :eek:. http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/01/the_biggest_myth_about_debunking_myths.html

[smokinjoe]

I have to admit that I am,and have been, extremely skeptical of the idea of "airtime" changing the profile of a bourbon upon opening. Like Thad, I can see something at the very end of a bottle after an extended period, but that's about it. I don't doubt, however, that some may notice a difference, or differences, throughout a bottles life. But, I think we need to look deeper than just the time and air phenomena. The relationship of said bottle in relation to the Qi in which it resides...and is consumed, must be harmonious. Yes, these bottles must be Feng Shui'd. I implore all who are suffering these inconsistencies to contact Feng Shui GrandMaster Po for a thorough evaluation and consultation with a resulting Feng Shui alignment of your bar. 20 minutes with his luopan is all it takes for your Qi to be in perfect harmony with your bourbon. I myself, was astonished at the improvement in my 4R F yeast bottles once I began placing them with the bottles front Rose facing West on my bar. The bitter tannins completely vanished! And of course, I like many here , completely had my BTACs improperly stored. Grandmaster PO chided me that one should NEVER place them side by side at the rear of your bar!!! If you do, you are in for an existence of your bourbon changing in them. Only 1 out of 250,000,000 domiciles are in harmony with that arrangement!

Then of course, there is the whole other phenomena of "Bottle Stretching" that works out the rough spots, tannins, and molecular chains of each pour to deliver the consistency desired. I can go into more detail if you're interested. But I'll just say, there is a reason that the more expensive and tasty bourbons (BTAC, VW's, Vintage, BMH, etc) are in these tall bottles that allow the whiskey to "exercise" into better shape with each pour...

There is so very much we can do to improve upon the Master Distliller's deficiencies in their craft...

[BigBoldBully]

For any who are skeptical about whether spirits change significantly in the bottle over time, simply do a sbs of a bottles opened for a long time within others freshly opened from the same batch. I first noticed that major differences do occur (despite my previous longstanding assumption that they do not) with a bottle of rum that was about half full after a year of occasional use. I happened to have bought three identical bottles at the same time, and since I was hosting a gathering decided to open the other two and start making mixed drinks from all three. Even through the pineapple juice and coconut, the difference was huge. Compared to the first bottle, the newly stuff was vibrant and full, and also had a much sharper bite--in fact it immediately reminded me of how the first bottle had tasted those initial months, though I had not noticed its gradual change without having anything to compare it to directly. So I poured neat from each bottle into three glasses and everyone could tell blind--the two newly bottles were the same, the other differed markedly. Since then I have performed similar experiments (more intentionally) dozens of times, and indeed most (but not all) spirits change substantially. So I say, 'tis no myth simply because you have failed to notice it. :grin:

Edited January 22, 2015 by BigBoldBully

[Richnimrod]

I have to admit that I am,and have been, extremely skeptical of the idea of "airtime" changing the profile of a bourbon upon opening. Like Thad, I can see something at the very end of a bottle after an extended period, but that's about it. I don't doubt, however, that some may notice a difference, or differences, throughout a bottles life. But, I think we need to look deeper than just the time and air phenomena. The relationship of said bottle in relation to the Qi in which it resides...and is consumed, must be harmonious. Yes, these bottles must be Feng Shui'd. I implore all who are suffering these inconsistencies to contact Feng Shui GrandMaster Po for a thorough evaluation and consultation with a resulting Feng Shui alignment of your bar. 20 minutes with his luopan is all it takes for your Qi to be in perfect harmony with your bourbon. I myself, was astonished at the improvement in my 4R F yeast bottles once I began placing them with the bottles front Rose facing West on my bar. The bitter tannins completely vanished! And of course, I like many here , completely had my BTACs improperly stored. Grandmaster PO chided me that one should NEVER place them side by side at the rear of your bar!!! If you do, you are in for an existence of your bourbon changing in them. Only 1 out of 250,000,000 domiciles are in harmony with that arrangement!

Then of course, there is the whole other phenomena of "Bottle Stretching" that works out the rough spots, tannins, and molecular chains of each pour to deliver the consistency desired. I can go into more detail if you're interested. But I'll just say, there is a reason that the more expensive and tasty bourbons (BTAC, VW's, Vintage, BMH, etc) are in these tall bottles that allow the whiskey to "exercise" into better shape with each pour...

There is so very much we can do to improve upon the Master Distliller's deficiencies in their craft...

JOE!!!! I'm so relieved to see you posting again... AND, again presenting us all with your vast wisdom. I had no idea this was such a complex and involved procedure. Now that I have some rationale to assist in my quest, I shall indeed seek further enlightenment.

[garbanzobean]

I think a lot of changes we perceive in the "life" of a bottle are just as related to familiarity, mood, diet, etc as they are to air. But some bottles do seem to change over time. Or if I accidentally leave the top off for a few days to a week.

[B.B. Babington]

...I like many here , completely had my BTACs improperly stored. Grandmaster PO chided me that one should NEVER place them side by side at the rear of your bar!!...

Honorable master has much wisdom. Most everyone stores their best away from prying eyes of moochers and daughter's boyfriends. But maybe if put it to the fore so visiting bourbonites see, then they bring their prizes for comparison.

[AaronWF]

I think a lot of changes we perceive in the "life" of a bottle are just as related to familiarity, mood, diet, etc as they are to air. But some bottles do seem to change over time. Or if I accidentally leave the top off for a few days to a week.

Drinking a bottle is a journey, not a destination. If you perceive a change in the taste, it's real. If it happens again, patterns start to emerge. I love how a bottle changes over time, that's why I have around 70 bottles open.

[garbanzobean]

Drinking a bottle is a journey, not a destination. If you perceive a change in the taste, it's real. If it happens again, patterns start to emerge. I love how a bottle changes over time, that's why I have around 70 bottles open.

[GaryT]

Drinking a bottle is a journey, not a destination. If you perceive a change in the taste, it's real. If it happens again, patterns start to emerge. I love how a bottle changes over time, that's why I have around 70 bottles open.

[smokinjoe]

I think we're changing to a greater degree than the whiskey...

[smokinjoe]

If you're not having fun with your whiskey then you should probably buy an ascot and monocle and start worshipping Robert Parker and Jim Murray.

[unclebunk]

^^Now, these are wise words, G. :toast:

As our own Grandmaster here on SB has said, If you're not having fun in this hobby, you're doing it wrong.

[GaryT]

^This X100. It's us who's a changin'...

I'm pretty sure I got that idea from one of our BOTYs in another thread And he was right!

[smokinjoe]

Oh, I always have fun, I just don't always remember it the next morning.[emoji1]

Hank, I've been saying it for years...I want to party with you, Cowboy!

:toast:

Ain't it time for another Binny's event?

[unclebunk]

Any time, Joe! Why, I risked life and limb to attend the last Binny's get-together on a day that my wife had a special event at work that she wanted me to go to, but I told her that I finally had the opportunity to meet my buddy Joe from Atlanta. And then you weren't there! I had to drink doubles just to face her when I got home. But I'll catch you the next time around, that's for sure!

[DonutsNBourbon]

I was wondering about this as well. I opened up a GTS and I liked it more when I tried it weeks later than when I first tried it out. Same thing happened with a bottle of Single Oak Project I had. The opposite happened with a Breckenridge bottle, I actually thought it tasted worse.

another thing happened, when I left out some EC12 in a glass over night (I know, blasphemy), it was still fine the next day, but I left some Walthen's (kinda wish I hadn't bought this bottle) out and it turned cloudy the next day. which was very odd, so I was wondering if "airing it out" actually had any impact on the way the bourbon tastes. or maybe it's as you guys said, it's not the bourbon that's changing, but it's me... which could be it

[amg]

Well, if you leave it out in a glass, you're definitely going to have some evaporation; I'm surprised you didn't detect any difference in that EC12!

[jvd99]

when I left out some EC12 in a glass over night (I know, blasphemy), it was still fine the next day

Yikes, overnight bourbon. I'm not sure I'm that brave.

[CorvallisCracker]

Could get away with that here during the winter, but during the warmer months, there'd be a dozen dead fruit flies in it by morning.

[DonutsNBourbon]

Yikes, overnight bourbon. I'm not sure I'm that brave.

[fishnbowljoe]

I've waited a bit before posting my thoughts here. Had to do some 'xpermentin' and analysis.

My first love was/is wheated bourbons. Without a doubt, I was once convinced they got better after opening up for a while. There were also instances that I thought that ryed bourbons might have done the opposite. After further review….. I think I have to pretty much agree with what smokinjoe and darylld911 (Joe and Gary) have alluded to. It's us that are a changin'.

I think that our minds (and suggestions) might play tricks on us. I also believe our palates get somewhat accustomed to, and/or desensitized to things over time. Example; I love my Weller 12. (FWIW, I've probably finished off more bottles of that than anything else I've ever had. :grin:) Poured me some a week or so ago and it was just as good as it ever was. :yum: Then I decided to switch things up a bit and go with some BT. Pretty darned good too. Sipped on that and some ETL for a while. Both are really good bourbons in my book. Revisited my Weller 12 today. Did this just get better or what? Hmmmm. :confused: I love my Weller 12, but darned if the BT and ETL weren't just about as good. Nahhhhhhhh, couldn't be. Maybe they weren't? Maybe the Weller 12 was just a little better because it had been open longer. Wait a minute. WTF???? :skep: See what I mean?

Pretty much all of us have our favorites. At the same time, we have other things that we like, so we'll have a pour of them from time to time too. In revisiting our favorites, we might have just a bit of a tendency to think they've gotten just a little bit better since the last time we tried them. Was it was because they'd had time to open up a bit? Maybe, maybe not.:Clever:

It's all good. Regardless of what we think, or may surmise, enjoy!!!!! Have fun, and try not to dwell on it too much. Yeah I know. Easier said than done.

Cheers! Joe

[flahute]

I've waited a bit before posting my thoughts here. Had to do some 'xpermentin' and analysis.

My first love was/is wheated bourbons. Without a doubt, I was once convinced they got better after opening up for a while. There were also instances that I thought that ryed bourbons might have done the opposite. After further review….. I think I have to pretty much agree with what smokinjoe and darylld911 (Joe and Gary) have alluded to. It's us that are a changin'.

I think that our minds (and suggestions) might play tricks on us. I also believe our palates get somewhat accustomed to, and/or desensitized to things over time. Example; I love my Weller 12. (FWIW, I've probably finished off more bottles of that than anything else I've ever had. :grin:) Poured me some a week or so ago and it was just as good as it ever was. :yum: Then I decided to switch things up a bit and go with some BT. Pretty darned good too. Sipped on that and some ETL for a while. Both are really good bourbons in my book. Revisited my Weller 12 today. Did this just get better or what? Hmmmm. :confused: I love my Weller 12, but darned if the BT and ETL weren't just about as good. Nahhhhhhhh, couldn't be. Maybe they weren't? Maybe the Weller 12 was just a little better because it had been open longer. Wait a minute. WTF???? :skep: See what I mean?

Pretty much all of us have our favorites. At the same time, we have other things that we like, so we'll have a pour of them from time to time too. In revisiting our favorites, we might have just a bit of a tendency to think they've gotten just a little bit better since the last time we tried them. Was it was because they'd had time to open up a bit? Maybe, maybe not.:Clever:

It's all good. Regardless of what we think, or may surmise, enjoy!!!!! Have fun, and try not to dwell on it too much. Yeah I know. Easier said than done.

Cheers! Joe

[black mamba]

In my experience the change is most prevalent with wheaters, and mostly with high proof wheaters. 1843, Old Fitz Bib, on up to the Wellers all taste hot and sharp when first opened, but after a couple weeks to a month they taste bolder and smoother without the harshness. If there really isn't anything to it, then why don't I notice the same thing about the multiple dozens of rye bourbons I've tried? I would also say that 12-15 months is about the max I would keep an opened bottle; they really seem to go flabby and lose all "pop" after that length of time, whether wheat or rye bourbons. Oxidation is real, not a myth.

[smokinjoe]

If there really isn't anything to it, then why don't I notice the same thing about the multiple dozens of rye bourbons I've tried?

I wish I could answer that for you. But, try not to be so closed minded on the lack of airtime effects on those ryed bourbons!

[unclebunk]

Honestly, out of the hundreds of bottles of bourbon, rye, scotch and Irish whiskey that I've owned over the years, some of which remained open for several years in an effort to stretch their lifespan as long as possible, I've never once noticed a significant change in any of them, at least not in such a way that caused me concern or to lament that I had not consumed them earlier. But then I'm really not a "lab coat" type of guy that makes detailed notes about such things. I'm just happy to possess an exquisite bottle from time to time and enjoy them in whatever condition they are in whenever the mood strikes me. I'm not saying that they don't change, I'm just not bothered if they do. Cheers!