NDP's are are producing like bunnies

[TunnelTiger]

Just back from a quick run to my main store to pick up some rye and found another couple of new NDP bourbons on the shelf.

Now while they do not take up more shelf space than the producer labels at this time they are growing.

After a quick survey it does bother me that at the $50 price point they have surpassed the standards and this I am afraid will lead to additional price increases with those priced below $50.

Rant over.

[suntour]

Agreed. My dad loves bourbon (and bargains) but after tasting some of my favorites via samples he decided to branch out from family-sized bottles of EWB.

He calls me from his shop asking about a few bourbons and I've never heard of any of them. I mean I read this and other bourbon sites obsessively, I should of at least heard of them. The reality is there are gigantic holes on most retail bourbon shelves and the NDPs see nothing but opportunity. Being ungoogleable is good for these pump and dump shelf fillers, you'll buy them once if you want a new thing and aren't hyper vigilant about researching them.

Basically Dad, all of the stuff you are looking at is essentially younger EWB with more water and price. I'll just keep sending you FR barrel pick samples. It's not a worthwhile chase in 2015.

[squire]

A rising tide lifts all boats they say, and NDPs have been helping increase customer acceptance of higher Bourbon prices for years. I'm convinced that's why the majors sold them quality aged whisky in the first place.

[portwood]

I'm convinced that's why the majors sold them quality aged whisky in the first place.

Is it possible some of these NDP's are actually brands owned by the actual major producers?

[Tony Santana]

Every time I go in a liquor store it seems like I see a new NDP selection in the bourbon aisle. I don't know how many more of those - and the craft distillery offerings, and all the honey and cinnamon and maple flavored crap - they can find the shelf space for.

[kjbeggs]

I mentioned this in the thread for musings on the bourbon bubble. Every week, there are new bottom-shelf quality whiskeys, with mid-shelf prices, and top-shelf packaging...

[Restaurant man]

Perhaps they are eyeing Bulleit's success as inspiration for their own potential prosperity.

Bulleitt is good bourbon. Just underproofed IMO

[tanstaafl2]

Bulleitt is good bourbon. Just underproofed IMO

Bulleit WAS good, well decent anyway, bourbon other than being underproofed which is not that much of a surprise because it came from Four Roses. When that supply runs out no telling what you will get other than yet another mystery whiskey from yet another NDP that makes up its history out of whole cloth. Hard for me to support that now or in the future. I have no trouble finding more interesting bottles to spend my pennies on!

Not that they need my support as it seems to sell well to the unwashed masses and seems to be available in every bar I go to.

[shoshani]

Is it possible some of these NDP's are actually brands owned by the actual major producers?

[tanstaafl2]

One could say for now that Diageo is probably the largest NDP in American spirits, although they are taking steps to rectify (ha) this by installing a distillery of their own on the Stitzel-Weller site.

Just to clarify the Diageo distillery site is in Shelbyville, KY which is east of Louisville about halfway to Frankfurt. Not sure there is going to be any distillery capacity at S-W but if they are building a distillery at S-W it will likely be little more than a small "tourist attraction" distillery.

[cowdery]

The distillery they're putting in at SW is a 'demonstration' plant, like the one at the Evan Williams Experience downtown. It will produce approximately 1 barrel per day. The distillery in Shelby County is, if I remember correctly, projected to be a 750,000 proof gallon plant, but they can always expand it. That's pretty big, about the same as Maker's Mark now, before the current expansion. It's small compared to Buffalo Trace, Jim Beam or Jack Daniel's.

[tanstaafl2]

The distillery they're putting in at SW is a 'demonstration' plant, like the one at the Evan Williams Experience downtown. It will produce approximately 1 barrel per day. The distillery in Shelby County is, if I remember correctly, projected to be a 750,000 proof gallon plant, but they can always expand it. That's pretty big, about the same as Maker's Mark now, before the current expansion. It's small compared to Buffalo Trace, Jim Beam or Jack Daniel's.

Ah, thanks for the clarification!

[Fpst]

A little of topic, but somewhat related: I've been hearing of smaller "craft" distilleries buying un-aged bulk spirit, running it through their own still (fast, with no cuts), before practicing their own method of "speed" aging. This supposedly gets them around the labeling laws, allowing them to put "distilled by" on their label and not just "bottled by." This makes it look like a legit, locally distilled product to more discerning folks who know how to read labels. But, the spirit was already distilled and barrel ready prior to them touching it. Not cool... thoughts?

[squire]

I have no problem with someone buying in netural spirit to make gin, that's how it's traditionally been done by even the most famous brands.

Running bulk stock through your still so you can claim to have "made it" is deceptive and I suspect widely practiced. Such things are openly discussed over on the craft distilling boards. Also explains how an outfit with a few relatively small stills somehow manages enough output to float national distribution.

[cowdery]

Cases I know of regarding this involve vodka or 'moonshine' products, so who cares? I have not heard of anyone doing it with whiskey new make. For one thing, I'm not so sure you can run whiskey new make through a still without actually distilling it, which will remove some more congeners, raise the proof, and change the spirit. A. Smith Bowman (ASB) has been doing this for many years. They get new make from BT and distill it again in their pot still and, yes, that's considered 'distilled by.' Of course, ASB was always up front about it. I don't know of anyone else doing it, either openly or on the down low.

[shoshani]

Bowman's is only a second distillation, though, right? As I recall from years ago, ASB did their own distilling from 1934 until Jay Adams moved shop sometime in the 1980s, whereupon they contracted with HH's pre-fire Bardstown distillery to do the first run to ASB's own specific mashbill, then send the resultant high wines on to ASB where Joe Dangler did the second distillation in a pot still.

I presume that BT still does it this way, although they may not use the ASB/VG mashbill anymore.

[Harry in WashDC]

Bowman's is only a second distillation, though, right? As I recall from years ago, ASB did their own distilling from 1934 until Jay Adams moved shop sometime in the 1980s, whereupon they contracted with HH's pre-fire Bardstown distillery to do the first run to ASB's own specific mashbill, then send the resultant high wines on to ASB where Joe Dangler did the second distillation in a pot still.

I presume that BT still does it this way, although they may not use the ASB/VG mashbill anymore.

Last year on a tour (me and the guide - it was a slow day for them), I asked whether they use basic BT high wine and was told BT uses the VG mash bill and yeast for that first run. I'm not sure that's really the case now (or maybe I inartfully asked my question) because, as our own SB VaGentleman posted yesterday(?), ASB has its new still installed, and they said they'd be using the original VG mash bill and would take their original yeast out of cryogenic storage for the first run. Seems to me they wouldn't state this so firmly and wouldn't need to take the original yeast out of storage if they already were having BT use it. But what do I know other than that I've been drinking their products since 1972.

Regardless, when they do the second distilling of the BT high wine that is trucked to them, they do barrel and age it on premises for years and years so it's not like they are taking finished whiskey and redistilling right before bottling.

[VAGentleman]

ASB gets BT Mashbill #1 from BT and distills it for a third time (2 distillations done at BT). They used to mash, ferment and distill when they were in Reston but that stopped in 1988

[Harry in WashDC]

Thank you, VaG, for keeping me straight. I figured you'd have the real answer.

[shoshani]

ASB gets BT Mashbill #1 from BT and distills it for a third time (2 distillations done at BT). They used to mash, ferment and distill when they were in Reston but that stopped in 1988

As recently as the 1990s, the process was very different. Both Jim Murray's "Complete Guide to Whiskey" and the Regans' "Book of Bourbon and other Fine American Whiskeys" detail Heaven Hill (at the old Bardstown distillery) distilling ASB's mashbill of 65% corn, 20% rye, and 15% barley malt in a single distillation, with the 130 to 135 proof low wines being sent to Fredicksburg where they went through a doubler for secondary distillation. The 145-150 proof high wines were then cut to 125 proof and entered into #2-char barrels. There was no third distillation back then.