Taste the malt in your bourbon?

[Flyfish]

Recently visited with an old friend who poured me some Glenmorangie. I haven't had any Scotch in years. Probably not in this century so I have not developed a palate to appreciate it. Now when I am drinking bourbon I get tiny reminders of what I associate with malt whisky. I know that malt in bourbon is not there as a flavoring agent but for the enzymes needed to make the beer. So, is my palate just messing with me or does anyone else detect a touch of malt mixed in with the corn and rye and/or wheat?

[bad_scientist]

Good god, yes, in some Heaven Hill products it's all I taste. My last EWSB tasted like powdered malt and vanilla.

[BigBoldBully]

Sometimes I think I taste a little (in the form of floral/citrus tones and the type of sweetness I associated with malt), but cannot be sure it is really the malt and not some other result of fermentation or wood aging. Compared to corn and rye, the malt flavor is pretty subtle. Maybe also drinking all-malt whiskies on a semiregular basis actually makes me less sensitive to it in such small proportions.

[Richnimrod]

Short answer: Sure, in minute nuances, as a rule. Now, ...the exception that proves the rule:

The one and only bottle I ever bought of Corner Creek had it 'in spades'... thus it was the only bottle I'll ever buy.

[upStomp]

Absolutely. My palate mostly picks it up in HH, JB, and WT products, all of which I generally avoid with some exceptions.

[flahute]

I pick up this flavor quite a bit in the JB Signature Craft 12yr which is why it's not a favorite of mine.

[squire]

I know it's in there (my preferred brands anyway) but damned if I can taste it.

[TunnelTiger]

Me either but probably a lot of my taste buds have been burned off after eating spicy/hot Chinese & Mexican food for many moons.

[ramblinman]

The one I got it from the most was the old 1792 Ridgemont Reserve. I think I'd pick it as an unpeated scotch more often than not in a blind tasting.

[mosugoji64]

Woodford strikes me as being malty. It's a unique flavor to Woodford that I don't detect in others.

[garbanzobean]

I can't think of a bourbon that tastes especially malty to me, but Bernheim Wheat Whiskey does. Some really nice malted milkshake flavors in that one, if you enjoy that sort of thing. Seems like some do not.

[T Comp]

The one I got it from the most was the old 1792 Ridgemont Reserve. I think I'd pick it as an unpeated scotch more often than not in a blind tasting.

My top choice too. Black Label Beam would be two.

[Leopold]

FWIW, the malted barley that is used in Bourbon production tastes nothing like the malt used in beer or whisky. It is what is called distiller's malt. Distiller's malt is produced in such a way as to maximize enzyme content, as this malt must convert all that corn and rye starch into fermentable sugars.

The chief way this is achieved that directly affects "malty" flavor is kilning. When distiller's malt is cured in the kiln, the temperatures rarely go higher than 150F. These lower temperature means that more enzymes survive the intense heat, and avoid being denatured. The curing temperature of a brewer's pale malt is normally between 180f and 190f these days. These elevated temperatures are where the malty, toffee like flavors develop in a base malt. This heat also destroys enzymes...enzymes that are not needed in all-malt mashes.

Distiller's malt does not develop these flavors because it is cured at much lower temperatures. So really, it's much closer to raw barley's grassy notes...notes you will find in Irish Pure Pot whiskies that use raw barley.

It is unlikely that the flavors some are perceiving as malty comes from the malted barley. More likely it's from the barrel, or from the method of mashing (e.g., pressure cooking corn and rye).

Just a point of curiosity that I thought some might find interesting.

[BigBoldBully]

Thank you for that info, Leopold. I think it is a good reminder for bourbon enthusiasts not to jump too quickly to conclusions about what is responsible for the flavors and aromas perceived.

[squire]

Thanks Todd, that's a very useful insight.

[Flyfish]

FWIW, I didn't mean to suggest that bourbon tastes like a malted but that some bourbon seems to have notes similar to Scotch--which is malt or, perhaps more properly, barley. I believe 1792 has a high barley content so that could explain ramblinman's observation.

Still, the Glenmorangie may have just messed with my palate. Veteran SBers have probably concluded that my palate is not all that reliable in the first place.

[Flyfish]

At the risk of this thread turning into a conversation between me and myself, here's a recent discovery: Mash bill for Wathen's is 77% corn, 10% rye, 13% barley. With the barley outweighing the rye, you might expect it to have a decidedly malty note. Can't say. Never had any myself. Me neither. (But I'll check back in and let me know when I get a chance to research it further.)

[CorvallisCracker]

(But I'll check back in and let me know when I get a chance to research it further.)

Let us and we know too.

Speaking of 13% barley bourbon, just 45 minutes ago I got a reply back from Ransom that the barley in Henry DuYore is malted (inquiry sent March 27).

[smokinjoe]

FWIW, the malted barley that is used in Bourbon production tastes nothing like the malt used in beer or whisky. It is what is called distiller's malt. Distiller's malt is produced in such a way as to maximize enzyme content, as this malt must convert all that corn and rye starch into fermentable sugars.

The chief way this is achieved that directly affects "malty" flavor is kilning. When distiller's malt is cured in the kiln, the temperatures rarely go higher than 150F. These lower temperature means that more enzymes survive the intense heat, and avoid being denatured. The curing temperature of a brewer's pale malt is normally between 180f and 190f these days. These elevated temperatures are where the malty, toffee like flavors develop in a base malt. This heat also destroys enzymes...enzymes that are not needed in all-malt mashes.

Distiller's malt does not develop these flavors because it is cured at much lower temperatures. So really, it's much closer to raw barley's grassy notes...notes you will find in Irish Pure Pot whiskies that use raw barley.

It is unlikely that the flavors some are perceiving as malty comes from the malted barley. More likely it's from the barrel, or from the method of mashing (e.g., pressure cooking corn and rye).

Just a point of curiosity that I thought some might find interesting.

Thanks much for your input on this. Great stuff. I'd like to veer a bit off topic while we have you here to ask for your take on the impact of yeast on the taste of bourbon. We speak much of "house style" of distilleries here. One of the house styles is commonly described (sometimes derisively) as the "Beam yeast funk". Good or bad, Beam has a style. Dickel has that vitamin thing. Older HH had the minty menthol thing. And, so on. Can you speak as to what impact yeast has to the house styles of the distilleries mentioned? Is the Beam funk actually yeast, as supposed here? Is the Dickel vitamin note a by product of their yeast? Or, is there something else at work that has more impact on those signatures? If it's a lot of things that impact that signature " house style " of a distillery, what would stand out the most?

And, thank you again for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

[flahute]

Thanks much for your input on this. Great stuff. I'd like to veer a bit off topic while we have you here to ask for your take on the impact of yeast on the taste of bourbon. We speak much of "house style" of distilleries here. One of the house styles is commonly described (sometimes derisively) as the "Beam yeast funk". Good or bad, Beam has a style. Dickel has that vitamin thing. Older HH had the minty menthol thing. And, so on. Can you speak as to what impact yeast has to the house styles of the distilleries mentioned? Is the Beam funk actually yeast, as supposed here? Is the Dickel vitamin note a by product of their yeast? Or, is there something else at work that has more impact on those signatures? If it's a lot of things that impact that signature " house style " of a distillery, what would stand out the most?

And, thank you again for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

Well shoot Joe, you beat me to the punch. I was going to start a thread about this very topic because it's been on my mind for a while. Slightly different take than you, but same basic idea.